Get ready for the United States of North America

[swede]

Swede,

Are you suggesting the government should regulate oil price like Jimmy Carter did in the US?

I am suggesting we start refining our own oil, tear up Nafta and get prices to a realistic level, how that is accomplished is up to the bean counters. I refuse to believe that we should be paying more than .50/ltr

[swede]

dup

[CID]

So Ralph is to blame for high oil prices? Alberta doesn't set the oil prices, the global market does. The Alberta government has little to no influence on the daily trading price of oil.

Dust Devil, you may (or may not) have noticed that I stated "Alberta will stick as close to market prices as they can while the cost of oil is high." The global market sets the price and heavily subsidized Alberta oil companies set their price accordingly.

You have to remember the context that I made the comments. Swede is blaming Martin and NAFTA for the oil prices when the Federal government would be playing political suicide if they capped Alberta oil prices destined for Canada. Not only would it fuel Alberta separation, we would see Alberta avoiding the Canadian market.

Who financed the Alberta oil patch? Oh you must be refering to the United States. The U.S was and still is a huge investor in the Western Canadian oilpatch.

Up until about 1978, Alberta was well established as a “have not” province. Calgary used to be a dusty little town. The development of a practical way to extract oil from the tar sands was heavily subsidized by the Canadian government. The newest perks are a reduction in corporate taxes for oil companies from 28% to 21% and a 10% tax credit for exploration. Too bad they forgot their humble beginnings and ignore the perks they continue to receive. And too bad you didn’t do a little research before you posted Dust Devil.

Good to see you don't see the U.S as an "Evil Empire", and more of a contributor and developer of our country.

Yes. They sure are! They recently “contributed” by extracting 5 billion from the Canadian softwood lumber industry in illegal tariffs. Then they further developed Canada by refusing to pay it back even though they lost the case (one of many NAFTA cases won by Canada) in international court.

The US doesn’t even respect Canada. Especially with the Bush administration in power, its my opinion that the US is anything but a developer or positive contributors of Canada.

That’s about as polite as I can get without calling anyone delusional.

[Westrules]

What makes you think that the Alberta goverment has anything to do with exploration & marketing etc of the oil sands? Alberta doesn't own the companies operating within its borders. The province mearly collects taxes from oil being produced. FYI The actual amount that Alberta pays in provincal gas taxes is around 9 cents a litre at the pump and they are considering lowering the tax but Klein is worried what the other HAVE NOT provinces would say. The taxes they recieve when oil is produced has nothing to do with what we pay at the pump. It is also a fact Canada is forced to import oil as a part of a treaty we signed.

[Bede]

Swede,

Lets assume that we decide to refine our own oil. Why would any oil producer sell oil to Canadians when they can sell it overseas for a much higher price? If we really want to see cheaper gas, than the Liberals will have to cut the $0.30 of taxes off the gas.

In regards to NAFTA, it has provided far more for Canada than the US. Our little economy gets to play in a market 10 times it's own size, while the huge US companies can expand their market by 10%. We win a lot more than the US does.

[Siddley Hawker]

A brief time line on the softwood lumber fracas. The original agreement was signed in something like 1985 or 86, I'd have to look it up. The surcharge was 15%, collected on the Canadian side of the border and pocketed by the Canadian Government. That agreement ran for 10 years or so, renewable, but was allowed to lapse by the Cretin. After the agreement ran out, the Americans increased the tariff to 27%, and began collecting it themselves. It was reduced to 20% on appeal, and that's where we are at the present. The five billion? I've written it off as the cost for the having the likes of Gene the Cretin, Carolyn Parrish, Raymond Chretien and Francie Ducros speak for Canadians.

[Dex]

I stand by my statement. The price of oil is regulated by Cartel. Politics, events, etc may influence the Cartel............

[just another pilot]

CID. Give you head a shake! Ottawa did not finance the Alberta oilpatch - Hydro Quebec on the other hand...
How do you equate tax cuts to investment? That might be incentive, but not financing.
Also, if you are referring to equalization and transfer payments, that was for a couple years in the 1970s. If you don't believe Alberta has payed that back in spades you should go over the numbers again.

[Wilbur]

Resources belong to the provinces, not the federal governement. If those from Ontario think the feds should force Alberta and other western provinces to sell for less than market price, are you willing to have Ontario subsidize the cost of manufactured goods they sell to the west? For example, if you want to buy oil/gas at 50% below market value are you willing to have your provincial government subsidize the cost of my next car by 50%?

[CID]

How do you equate tax cuts to investment? That might be incentive, but not financing.

The WTO disagrees with you Just Another Pilot. Tax cuts add to the bottom line. If you aren't being taxed, you are profiting. When exploration money is spent, it provides the oil companies with potential profit.

Incentive by definition is encouragement. Not investment. If I was to buy you lunch, it wouldn’t be incentive for you to buy your own lunch. If I was to convince you that you were hungry, that would be incentive for you to buy lunch.

Sorry. I don’t buy it. And neither does the WTO.

[just another pilot]

Ottawa did not invest money in exploration. Yes, they reduced taxes that allowed multi nationals to invest in Alberta. Do you believe exploration wouldn't eventually gone ahead anyway? What does the WTO think of the NEP?

Lunch? You sound like a Liberal.

[Dust Devil]

Tax cuts add to the bottom line. If you aren't being taxed, you are profiting.

And right there folks we have what every socialist out there fears.

If you aren't being taxed you are profiting. That's like saying if you arn't being stabbed in the chest your healthy.

If you aren't being taxed you're only keeping the money which is rightfully yours. especially when the government is continually generating record surpluses.

[. .]

Dust Devil: Is this really that difficult to understand? If your company normally pays $10,000,000 in taxes a year, then the government gives 10% tax credit for exploration (or whatever they're giving credit for). You now have $1,000,000 that you wouldn't of had until the government gave it to you. When your company does up their quarterly report where do you think that $1,000,000 goes? I guess you didn't catch it, but it ends up in the profit column. Hard to believe, I know.

I really find it hard to believe that some people on here can't get their heads around tax credits being subsidies. In some industires that allows the companies to continue existing. In other industries it offers incentives to do certian things.

[Nightshiftzombie]

If you aren't being taxed you're only keeping the money which is rightfully yours. especially when the government is continually generating record surpluses.

We may be running surpluses but we still have something like 480 Billion dollars in debt. If we don't get this paid down at least a little we will all get screwed next time intrest rates start climbing. If the govenment just starts cutting taxes without paying down the debt its like making the minimum payment on your credit card every month. It might work OK when times are good but you don't have much wiggle room if things get tight.

[CID]

And right there folks we have what every socialist out there fears.

Socialists? Who's talking about socialists?

If you aren't being taxed you are profiting. That's like saying if you arn't being stabbed in the chest your healthy.

Um...no. Its more like if everyone is being stabbed in the chest, how come one guy isn't. Its about having a level playing field. The oil patch is a cash cow so its arguably a worthy sector to provide subsidies. However, if Alberta isn't willing to reciprocate, then why should the subsidies continue?

If you aren't being taxed you're only keeping the money which is rightfully yours. especially when the government is continually generating record surpluses.

We live in a pretty good country. We have our problems, but Alberta was able to build its wealth within the Federation. As citizens of Canada most of understand that taxes maintain our standard of living and our social (not socialist) responsibilities. Not all countries or even provinices are independantly wealthy and don't have the luxury of forgoing taxation.

What Klein is cooking up can end up being disasterous for Alberta and Canada.

[Dust Devil]

Dust Devil: Is this really that difficult to understand? If your company normally pays $10,000,000 in taxes a year, then the government gives 10% tax credit for exploration (or whatever they're giving credit for). You now have $1,000,000 that you wouldn't of had until the government gave it to you. When your company does up their quarterly report where do you think that $1,000,000 goes? I guess you didn't catch it, but it ends up in the profit column. Hard to believe, I know.

I really find it hard to believe that some people on here can't get their heads around tax credits being subsidies. In some industires that allows the companies to continue existing. In other industries it offers incentives to do certian things.

If it's so damn important to pay down the debt then why do the liberals blow billions of dollars to buy eastern canada and NDP votes? I understand that a tax credit increases profit, however the point I'm trying to make is the money should not have been removed from the people to begin with. If the liberals would tighten their spending on all these social programs and gun control then there would be plenty of money to pay down debt, and offer a tax cut to companies and individuals.

[2pwrr]

I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee, petrol sorry gas prices in the USA/CANADA are so cheap in europe we are paying over
two dollars fifty a liter. This is why we drive small cars if you stop buying gas guzzlers maybe you wouldnt have so much to complain about. I had a ford escort estate/station wagon diesel that did 50 miles to the us gallon in 1985 so suck it up and move on

[just another pilot]

CID. Alberta isn't reciprocating? In what way? What are Alberta's equalization payments?
However, I do agree with you about Alberta's future, but it is not Klein that Easterners should worry about - its the average Albertan. What is coming will compromise the future of confederation.

[LH]

Just a few facts to clear up some of the ignorance I see promulgated here:

1) It costs $4M to clear a lease site, haul in and erect the rig and to begin drilling. The road into that lease will cost in the area of $1M per MILE as of yesterday morning. The hole will be drilled based on geologists reports and the further 1+ years of seismic exploration that was necessary to get those facts for the geologists.....and that exploration does not come cheap. Helicopters are employed extensively for this form of exploration and the costs average between $800 - $3000/hr + fuel and that fuel is burned at the rate of 50 -150 gals/hr. Those helicopters will average 5-6 hrs each per day. The hole will be drilled to approximately 3000' - 5000' and will be months in duration and may well be over a year. After all that time and money spent, it may well turn out to be "a duster" and they may well do that same thing 4 times before hitting anything of value. If it is of value, it may not be of value for long because the basin of crude oil underneath the ground may not be that large.

2) Neither AB, any provincial/State or Federal government anywhere in the western world establishes the price of crude oil.......that is done by the Market. That Market establishes the price based on the price of a barrel of Texas e "Sweet" Crude Oil. So what if it's "sweet"....who cares? "Sweet" oil is the purest kind and needs the least refining and therefore the overhead involved to get it to market is much less and there is added profit as a result. So as mentioned before, the price is set at the price of Texas "Sweet Oil, BUT not every oil producing country has the same amount of "Sweet" oil, IF in fact they have any at all. The Saudis have tons of oil as everyone knows, but their holdings of "sweet" crude are not that great. Therefore their oil needs more refining and THEY CAN"T DO IT because 85-90% of the world's refineries exist in your country and the US of A.....the rest of the refineries exist in western and eastern Europe.

So when you hear on the news about the price of oil for the day, they are quoting the price for a drum (55 gals US) of "sweet" oil and not lesser crap that is also oil, but needs tons of refining to extract what you put into your gas tanks. Who has most of the "sweet" oil worldwide at present?........Nigeria. Unless someone has been living on another planet for the last year and a half, they also realize that there is a civil war going on in Nigeria and the oil wells onshore are favourite targets. Many of those wells have had to shut down because the international unions will not allow their workers to work on them under those conditions. In turn, the insurance companies will not insure them and everything grinds to a halt. So if the supply of "sweet" oil is less as a result, the "Law of Supply and Demand" then determines that you and I will pay more at the pumps. Ralph Klein nor any PM of Canada have any control over any of the above.

3) "Calgary was a dustry little cowtown in 1978"? The oil industry was subsidized by the Alberta government before that? Hit the Oilmen's Club in Calgary on a Friday afternoon sometime and spew that garbage inside the confines of that establishment..........then prepare to get a very steep "educational course" about the realities of the oil and gas industries. Don't mention the name George Bush either because you'll end up with a dental bill. The insurance rates on all the rigs went up 250-300% PER DAY immmediately after the Iraq crap began......and there's a whole wack of REAL pissed-off oil dudes that would like to tar and feather the s.o.b's ass.

4) Th Agreement to sell the USA part of our oil production pre-dates NAFTA by decades and has entirely nothing to do with it. We were not "sold out" by any Canadian politician regardles of his political stripe. It was all signed, agreed to and was tied into the NORAD signing. Believe it not folks, theere was actually a time when another country as powerful as the US has tha bility to threaten our safety each and everyday. Humourous nowadays perhaps if you weren't arounf then, but definitely6 not humourous to those who lived it. The US wanted to have a source of oil that was not dependent on shipping across oceans and was native to the continent. Canada was woirking with the US in the defense of this continent that we share and since they were "footing" all the real big bills to protect our asses, Canada agreed to hold up her "end of the stick" in some manner and that was one of the many ways she did so. There was also something called the Mid Canada Line and the PineTree Line, that we financed ourselves and contributed towards "paying our share".