Western Seperation

[EI-EIO]

Tell Harper, Klein et al to stop worrying about "marriage" and we'll try and rein in the crooks here in ON. Deal?

If Martin had to depend on Harper the Fed budget would have been very different. And it was close too, until the kook brigade started banging on about morals, and Martin was in bed with Jack Layton FFS with Duceppe careful not to bring down the government to avoid alienating small-L liberals in QC, and Jack is loading the pork onto the Fed budget, pork AB will pay for! So blame Harper!

I'm in a "marriage between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others" and yet when I passed that fscking "Defend Marriage" bus in Toronto today it was all I and my wife could do to stop ourselves slashing the tires - first because of the preachy bullsh!t and second because it dooms us here in the 416 to ever more Liberal government.

[cyyz]

I read page 1 sorry.

But 7 billion was raised in taxes off gas.

The most comming from the province of Ontario.

The Feds have a surplus of over 10 billion now, with most of it comming from Ontario...

I can't blame Alberta for wanting to seperate.

What I don't understand is why Ontario doesn't want to leave...

[cyyz]

PS. and the lot of you that got off topic on "marriage"

You n00bs, that's another tax grab, "marriage certificate" Shit if someone wants to marry their fucking goat they should be allowed to do so....

Allow everyone to marry anything or just stop this marriage bullshit. No need to get married, be together and that's it....

Bunch of lawyers thought up of your "marriage" buggery.... So they could make billions off it.

[Chantal]

Hmm, Color me surprised to read this crazy idea, soon after a BSE Crisis in Alberta. What's going on in Alberta?

Regarding Ralph's comments,
Great Canadians don't wreck the place and then ask for Financial help from the rest of Canadians. I recently seen Nature Conservancy of Canada, who are trying to save the endangered Habitat and wildlife in Alberta that is being destroyed, probably by Alberta contractors.

Don't you think Alberta has some advantage to help Canadians in a Energy crisis?

Ei_eio, Burn in Ontario with your freaking Gay marriages. Harper was doing the right thing for Canada in his campaign against EXPENSIVE Gay marriage. Who knows how much wealth has been lost, and will be lost to that agenda. Saying this because, They are not stopping at marriage laws but they are going after School programs too. They are not that Good, one Revenue Canada official is threatening churches for speaking out or for post a letter on it's website, against gay marriages which is wrong, don't you think? especially for a government employee too. And I never seen such constant biased, bigoted news against a person in parliament like we have seen the media doing to Stephen Harper. Surely you have noticed it.

[CID]

Oil will never fall below 20 dollars a barrel, the break even point.

That’s the break even point with subsidies in place and with no viable alternative. What happens if governments get serious about alternative energy?

Your rebuff of Mr. Harper is typical of an easterner…

According to the last election, my “rebuff” was typical of a Canadian.

CID is a typical lefty. Probably owns ferns and eats granola for breakfast.

The nice thing about typical lefties like CID is that they're almost always wrong about everything.

If you're unsure about your position on something, check what CID's is, and you can confirm that the opposite is correct.

These statements expose such a great deal of ignorance, I will avoid answering them to avoid the risk of sinking to a similar level.

and CID I would suggest you talk to "Just Another Pilot" before making comments like that. He has done extensive research into this topic and has the whole facts to back it up!

OK then. Let him state the “facts” then. I’ve researched it myself and formed my opinions.

CID, I hope you don't fly,cause your obviously blind.

Floats, no. I can ”see” you’re a childish moron. If you have a comment, make it without an insult and I might respond in a similar manner.

Can you believe that that the liberals brag about huge surpluses. Surplus is a fancy way of saying "overtaxation".

I made no statement that defended Liberal policy or the surplus. So why try to tack that on me?

This is why Albertans don't like liberals.

Again, another one who translates negativity towards Stephen Harper and the Conservatives into support for the Liberals. I am not a card carrying Liberal. In fact I have voted for other parties in the past. I think Chretien was no less than a common criminal. I made negative references to Harper and I stand by them. I made very little reference to the Liberals. Your accusations are based on assumptions.

The opinion of people like CID sickens me…

I guess I’ll just have to live with that. Boo-hoo.

Finally, as far as being an Albertan is concerned, I would say "EROS"
(Equal Representation or Separation.)

Don’t let the screen door hit you on the ass on the way out. I’ll see you crawling back when oil falls out of favour.

I didn’t realize AvCanada was so full of rednecks!

[mellow_pilot]

I didn’t realize AvCanada was so full of rednecks!

Well DAMN!!! Neither did I, you rednecks wanna go have a beer? We can wacth Bill Engvall and his 'here's your sign' bits on the Blue Collar Comedy Tour. We could discuss CIDs' need for a sign of her own. I'll be in the Fraser Valley if you hicks wanna get together...

For those of you who don't know Bills' work:
http://www.billengvall.com/content/home.html

[. ._]

Yes, Oakville should separate.

[. .]

If the conservatives ever decide they want to win an election it's a pretty simple task. Step out of the bronze age and take a peak into 2005. Same sex marriage and abortion are ok.

Telling people they can't get married because they're both the same sex is rather silly. Who cares, let them marry. My world isn't going implode because two women or men have a piece of paper and rings on their fingers. Lets not make this into a big deal. The church wants to talk about protecting values? How bout having a month go by without someone from their ranks involved with an eight year old boy in a sex scandal? How about the pope condoning condom use in Africa where AIDS rates hover around 40%?

You can't have Haper saying he wants to see abortion go to a vote in the house of commons. Talk about a step back. If he could have just shut his trap and let women decide, he'd have gotten a lot more votes.

I personally hate Martin, but looking at the options they were the only sane one. I'd sooner have my tax dollars pissed away then have restricted abortion, or a step backwards for gay rights. If the conservatives could just grasp this they'd easily win.

[Bede]

I think Harper is pro choice but said he'd allow a free vote in the COmmons. Canada is the only country with absolutly no abortion laws.

[Blastor]

Klein must share: expert

Country will be in danger if Alberta keeps riches: Courchene

Lee Greenberg

CanWest News Service August 27, 2005


TORONTO - One of Canada's leading experts on equalization and interprovincial relations says Alberta will have to relinquish some of its windfall billions in oil revenue or risk the destruction of the federation.

Discussing a paper to be released next week, Thomas Courchene, senior scholar at Montreal's Institute for Research on Public Policy and a professor at Queen's University, said yesterday a portion of Alberta's projected $7-billion surplus should be shared with the other provinces.

Alberta's wealth, generated by crude oil and natural gas deposits, which are now fetching historic prices, has left the province with a series of enticing possibilities, including eliminating income tax, corporate tax, or even providing free post-secondary education.

The province is already debt-free and has the lowest income tax rates in the country.

However, Mr. Courchene said continued financial growth would prompt Canadians to flock to Alberta, weakening all the other provinces in the process.

"If Alberta spends all of it internally it either means zero taxes in Alberta or Cadillac versions of all public services, or variations of both.

"Who's about to live in Saskatchewan in those scenarios? You could just go to Alberta and be unemployed and probably get welfare that's a bit more than you could earn in Saskatchewan," Mr. Courchene said in a telephone interview yesterday.

"The real difficulty that Canada faces is that if Alberta starts spending this on infrastructure. It can have a health system, an education system, an environmental -- anything it wants -- that no other province can afford. If that happens, the Confederation is gone."

Mr. Courchene, a Sask- atchewan-raised Princeton graduate, is a former director of Queen's University's School of Policy Studies and is the author of some 250 books on Canadian policy issues. He said he had mixed feelings about initiating a discussion that could stir up divisive sentiment.

"This is the beginning of a 'let those eastern bastards freeze in hell' type of scenario," he said. "I guess someone has to say it."

The infamous National Energy Program, imposed by the Trudeau government when crude prices soared in 1980, was used as a mechanism to distribute wealth from Alberta to the rest of the country.

However, it chilled investment and remains a flashpoint for Western alienation.

On Wednesday, Alberta Premier Ralph Klein reminisced about the "ghost towns" that Edmonton and Calgary became in the wake of the NEP and warned Prime Minister Paul Martin against a similar redistribution strategy. Responding to reports that Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said Alberta's wealth was becoming "the elephant in the room," Mr. Klein said Mr. McGuinty and Mr. Martin should"keep your hands off" his province's oil riches.

"If they are the great Canadians that they profess to be, then they'll leave us alone and respect the constitution," he told reporters.

Mr. Courchene agrees that the NEP was a "disaster," but says some sort of revenue-sharing mechanism is needed for the good of the country.


"Alberta's biggest fear should be that Ottawa put in another National Energy Program. But ... it came in because the system couldn't afford to handle the cost of it," he said. "If Alberta sits tight and keeps collecting all these revenues, Ottawa's going to step in. I don't think Ottawa can tolerate $7-billion a year. The pressures on the rest of the country will be too hard."

One of the suggestions Mr. Courchene will propose is an energy revenue sharing scheme whereby provinces kick in 10% of those resources to be distributed by the provinces themselves through the Council of the Federation.

He will also suggest the imposition of a minimum taxation level to partly recoup some of the revenue lost if Alberta decides to eliminate income taxes. Mr. Courchene said the federal government might raise the minimum level at the highest bracket to 35% from 29%. Alberta's income tax levels in that bracket are 10%, he said, meaning rates would drop from 39% to 35%, instead of 29%.

"We should celebrate the fact that Alberta's getting rich because that's good for all of Canada and we should try to find ways to make it good for all of Canada as well as Alberta. We can't take this money away from them, but we can ... still keep the federation functioning effectively and co-operatively from east to west."

Mr. Courchene also bolstered the Ontario government's campaign against a $23-billion gap, the difference between what it pays into federal government and what it gets back by way of transfers and other program spending.

On Wednesday, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce released a report saying that if the system is not fixed, Ontario could become a 'have-not' province by 2010.

Mr. Courchene agrees. In a study presented to a federal committee in May, he argued that because Ontario has significantly higher wages than anywhere else in the country, it can afford to provide fewer services than elsewhere. "And for me, that's an ideal definition of a have-not fiscal province," he said.

One political analyst, however, University of Calgary professor David Taras, said that any federal effort to take away Alberta's booming oil revenue could itself lead to the break-up of Canada.

"I think that the reaction in Alberta to that would be very very harsh," he said.

"If you ever wanted to reopen the constitutional wars with real nastiness and venom, that would do it. It would cause real questions about national unity. The memory of the NEP and the devastation that it caused are still very much alive in Alberta."

..Alberta Seperation? Sure, why not!

[swede]

Some very interesting points in that, sounds like the stubble jumpers have themselves in a bit of a quandry. What to do with all that $$? I never really thought about how divisive something like this could be, sort of like siblings fighting over an estate..

[2R]

If your mother had an abortion you might not be here.
Abortion is the cruelist form of Murder,Slaughtering the unborn in the Mothers womb

[bandaid]

Should the west seperate?
Why not? It would be an interesting fight for power, which Premier would run the west? We have 2 interesting personalities as premiers one in Alberta and one in B.C.
Alberta's Premier has had the good sense to announce that he will not run again, and B.C's Premier's reflection from his red nose must have impaired his vision to the point where he couldn't see the results of his last election where his fate changed dramatically from having all but two seats in the house to nearly losing an election. The two from the west could draw straws, lord knows they should both have quite a collection of them
As for Saskatchewan and Manitoba's Premiers, I don't know enough about them to comment.
Sure we should seperate, my prediction is we would be either part of the United States within 10 years or begging Ottawa to take us back.

[bandaid]

A proud moment for all B.C.ers

[just another pilot]

No CID, my accusations about Liberals are based in facts. And no, I haven't called you a liberal, I merely stated that Albertans don't like the Liberals. I base that "assumption" on Alberta's voter turnout.

[Dust Devil]

Should the west seperate?
Why not? It would be an interesting fight for power, which Premier would run the west? We have 2 interesting personalities as premiers one in Alberta and one in B.C.
Alberta's Premier has had the good sense to announce that he will not run again, and B.C's Premier's reflection from his red nose must have impaired his vision to the point where he couldn't see the results of his last election where his fate changed dramatically from having all but two seats in the house to nearly losing an election. The two from the west could draw straws, lord knows they should both have quite a collection of them
As for Saskatchewan and Manitoba's Premiers, I don't know enough about them to comment.
Sure we should seperate, my prediction is we would be either part of the United States within 10 years or begging Ottawa to take us back.

Trust me. You don't want Lorn Calvert running the show. And if Deb Higgans was in charge of governing labour in this "new" country. Every oil company would pack up and leave.

[swede]

Should the west seperate?
Sure we should seperate, my prediction is we would be either part of the United States within 10 years or begging Ottawa to take us back.

I guess the salient point here is, are we really - for all intents- not part of the U.S. now? Look at the softwood lumber dispute, the BSE dispute. The U.S. keeps redrawing the line in the sand, when and where they want. Our appeals to the world trade bodies, although won by Canada, are ignored by the U.S. How many of our petroleum companies are not foreign owned - how about minerals and metals? What say would our military or illustrious P.M. have if the U.S. decided to take us over in name as well as fact? Do you really think Britain under bush's lap dog Blair would care less and jump to our defence - not bloody likely?

[Siddley Hawker]

I believe two things have to occur before the west will become serious about separation, in spite of the percentages in the poll. First, the federal Liberals have to win the next election and second, there needs to be someone, a spark plug, to ignite the separatist sentiment that already there and which will only be exacerbated by a Liberal election win.

Barring divine intervention, the Libs have pretty much committed themselves to an election somewhere around the middle of February. Those people who said a summer election wasn't necessary should be tickled pink to drag their asses through the snow at minus 30, but I digress. The way I see it, the Libs will pretty much take Ontario, a handful of seats in the Montreal area, and the same in the Maritimes. I'm betting they will be shut out in Alberta - I doubt if even Landslide Annie will hold her seat. They'll take a few seats in the rest of the west, mainly the lower BC mainland. That oughta be enough to guarantee them, if not a slim majority, at least a large minority such as they have now. They will continue to make deals with the NDP and it'll be business as usual. You can pin the Liberal election hopes by area code if you're so inclined - 604, 416, 905, 514 and 450. Go look 'em up.

Finding an individual to ignite the resentment against the status quo and lead the western separatist is a little harder. Back when, Quebec had Rene Levesque and later Lucien Bouchard, to rally the separatist sentiment. I don't see anybody out there on the horizon that has the charisma of either of those two. That's not to say there isn't someone, I hasten to add. There's no shortage of intelligent politicians out west, but do they have the fire in the belly for separatism that Levesque and Bouchard had? I have no idea. I do know this though. Anytime you get better than 30 percent of the electors expressing separatist sentiment, Ottawa had better wake up. In Quebec there has probably never been more that 25 percent of the voters that are hard core separatists, that is, those who would vote for out and out separation from Canada on a straightforward referendum question. But that's one hell of a catalyst when it comes to a referendum, particularly one with a bullshit question nobody understands.

Ernest Manning, Preston's dad, wrote a neat little book called "Political Realignment : A Challenge To Thoughtful Canadians." I haven't seen it for awhile, it might even be out of print, but it's worth a read. He wrote that in 1967, and got the current political situation pretty well down to pat.

[Check Pilot]

That is outstandingly brilliant..

I really hope for our own Country soon.

[CID]

Hey, with all the money that Alberta has, why don't they buy good road line paint. I drove into Edmonton tonight and I could barely see the damn road!

Now BC has awesome road paint! And those little road reflectors.

[mellow_pilot]

Perhaps Alberta should calm down and think about the results of separation. Now, I really am not an expert here, but it seems to me that if Alberta were a country unto itself, that would mean that brodering the US would be a shiny new country. A country with no military, not trade agreements, no international alliences, no history of good will, and a SH!T load of oil. Do we think perhaps we should wait till Bush is gone, and a non-aggressive government is in power before we break off fellas?

Perhaps, rather than scream separate, Alberta should use the 7 Billion dollars toward an ad campain. Make sure the rest of Canada realises how were all getting screwed by the modern breed of politician. I can't remember one person, from any party, who has ever made a policy decision that was totally in the intrest of Canadians, and not in their own.


So here's the plan, we should reduce the salary of politicians to that of the average Canadian. Let them live how we live. Then maybe they would get the point. For those who say that we would then not attract the best and brightest to the job... are you stupid??? We give them lots of money and look who we got!! We don't need the best lawyers, the brightest Phd., we need people who actually give a damn.

To Alberta:

I am not from western Canada. I do not pretend to fully understand the anger. Personally I'd be happy about 7 bil, not upset. I do know that the rest of Canada is pretty pissed about the government too. The people of the rest of Canada aren't out to get you. We want you to stay. Politicians are arseholes the world over, no matter who you vote in. If you guys can get the conservatives to tone down the stupidity, I'll be happy to vote for them and give them a chance to go to work for you guys. Just try to remember the people of Canada aren't against you.

[Guido]

I think you're on to something here, mellow. The pay rate for politicians should be pegged to the average income of Canadians. If they manage to increase our income, they get a raise... if they manage to lay off a bunch of people and lower said income... down goes their income. Works for me! THat's incentive for quality job creation right there!

Check out some of the incomes here:
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a.htm

[North Shore]

Poor old John A. MacDonald ... stitches together a confederation with the help of a railroad and gallons of Scotch - only to find, 130 years later, that he should have left natural resources under federal jurisdiction, not provincial. That would have solved some of our current federal/provincial bickering, and disproportionality of resource revenues.

On another topic - IT'S NOT A F*&KING SURPLUS; I wish that the government would realize this. At last count, our federal debt was $500 BILLION + Someone has to pay it back, and as the majority of those who benefitted from it are still alive, then they should pay for it. If you lent a friend $500, and he tried to pay back $10 a year, you'd laugh at him....
Instead of buying votes wherever they can, the gov't should be spending every last surplus cent on reducing the Nat'l debt.

[Nightshiftzombie]

Yep. Pay down the bloody debt before it fucks us all.

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

the gov't should be spending every last surplus cent on reducing the Nat'l debt

Agreed, this seemed to be en vogue in the early to mid-nineties but the voting public/parties seem to have forgotten. Had Preston, Stockwell or Stephen pushed it harder I feel they would have been more successful in the big O, ala Harris.