Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

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AuxBatOn
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by AuxBatOn »

Rockie wrote:
The problem AuxBatOn is that YOUR only criteria are capabilities. Engine failure survivability and affordability don't seem to be on your radar at all. And as a matter of fact capabilities are an essential factor in my mind which I'm reasonably certain other fighters have...along with those other two things of course. Unless you're suggesting any airforce not flying the F-35 has no capabilities?
Capabilities are ONE of my criteria. Survivability as a whole is another one (in combat and at home) so is affordability.

With advances in technology, I think it's fair to say that the risk of having an engine failure, while not nil, is much smaller than it was 30-40 years ago and, in my mind, having seen some of the tests the engine went through, is acceptable even when we operate up North (which is not at all the norm but the exception).

As far as affordability, I think the current article highlights pretty well that the price of a Super Hornet fleet is going to be as expensive or more expensive than an F-35 fleet (which I have been preaching all along...)
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Rockie »

AuxBatOn wrote:With advances in technology, I think it's fair to say that the risk of having an engine failure, while not nil, is much smaller than it was 30-40 years ago
You're right. But while standalone failures are much more rare there's not much you can do about failures resulting from external sources (like my case). Standalone failures cannot be ruled out either because engines get worked on by people and mistakes happen. You know this as much as anybody so I won't belabor the point. Also you're forgetting the civilian principle that regardless of the engine it's not a question of "if", but "when". That principle applies to the military as well.
AuxBatOn wrote:As far as affordability, I think the current article highlights pretty well that the price of a Super Hornet fleet is going to be as expensive or more expensive than an F-35 fleet (which I have been preaching all along...)
Again you could be right, but I've never been a proponent of the SH. I am a proponent of a proper competition examining all the relevant factors...including a realistic assessment of engine failure probability and survivability. That factor, plus the limitation of a bare bones minimum purchase, and the impossibility of replacement aircraft has not been included in any assessment or report I've seen. I could be wrong...I stand to be corrected.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by cgzro »

Is it even possible to build a twin engine VTOL aircraft that can survive a single engine failure? I suppose the Osprey is one but its not quite the same thing and does not have a supersonic requirement.

I know not all the variants are VTOL but the idea was one airframe for multiple forces which on the surface seems sensible.

... Perhaps if we send em up in pairs one can push the other back like those guys in 'Nam years ago ;)
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Troubleshot »

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-e ... ic-2015-12

I am not sure how many missions we fly in the arctic but I was reading this article the other day and may look like we'll need to step up our patrols in the near future due to Russia building new bases up there. If I were a pilot way up there I'd want two engines, doesn't mean it has to be the Super Hornet either. Without increasing infrastructure in the arctic an F35 engine failure up there is almost certain death no? I guess if our intelligence shows an increased Russian military build up we will follow suit? or will we always be playing catch up and have gaps?

But to play devils advocate, is Super Hornet technology capable of defending that area? Seriously asking the question because I have no clue. Would the U.S. use the F35 in Alaska? From what I can tell they use a mix of F15's and F16"s, is that correct?
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Rockie »

Troubleshot wrote:Would the U.S. use the F35 in Alaska? From what I can tell they use a mix of F15's and F16"s, is that correct?
Alaskan units are operationally part of the Pacific Air Force (PACAF) along with units from Hawaii, Guam, Korea and Japan. Currently in Alaska the USAF has F-22's for air defence and F-16's as aggressors for training. The F-35 is slated to arrive in Alaska in 2020 where it too will join the aggressor squadrons, and presumably be available for rapid deployment to trouble spots throughout the Pacific.

The way things are going with China that seems more and more likely.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by complexintentions »

Hmmm.

Permission, as a non-military member, but proud supporter, to offer my opinion? I promise to try and word it in a way that will not offend my betters. Much.

All of the reporting I’ve read to date makes heavy use of terms like “preliminary”, “could cost up to”, "if" and many other qualifying weasel words. Hence, I think it’s safe to say that anyone’s opinion on the matters is just that: opinion. No one really knows what will happen after the fact. Apparently, sometimes government acquisitions occasionally go one or two dollars over budget. No, really. And the negotiations for economic offsets haven’t even begun, let alone been finalized! So why don’t the F35 admires calm down and quit trying to act as if they know the financial implications so precisely when the people who actually do the procuring, don’t? With no disrespect intended to AuxBatOn, a rank and file military pilot knows as much about the dollars and cents of military acquisition as a line pilot knows about managing an airline.

Numerous ironies and incosistencies abound, as pointed by Rockie. Outrage over single-source (guess you’re gonna give back your C-17’s, hmm?) "Single engine a/c are incredibly reliable" True, sure, ok. Right until they aren't - sumtin' 'bout a Harvard II recently? Harrumphing about the supreme value of life, and how it trumps equipment cost. Except that of course, unless massive SAR resources are staged at enormous cost in the north, the survivability of an ejection in the latitudes likely to be patrolled against the Red Threat is grossly lessened. And so it goes.

I am completely in agreement with Rockie on the 1 vs 2 engine argument. It’s Canada, not some tiny landlocked country. It does not have the resources of the US. Whether or not a twin should be the Super-Hornet, I am not entirely certain of but it sure seems like a logical choice. Capabilities? I’ll leave that to the “armchair experts”. I certainly don't try and claim they're the same, it's a different generation of aircraft after all. But much of the article describing the capability advantages of the F35 are based on things like US carrier ops - where there definitely IS SAR standing by constantly. How does this relate to far north patrols in Canada exactly?

Non-expert that I am, I’m trying to understand though, how the backers of the F35 look at these articles and view them as a win for their position on the issue of affordability. There was a statement somewhere stating basically “the F18 Super Hornet will cost more and be a far less capable aircraft”. Except, both articles state nothing of the sort regarding cost. Even with the most optimistic assumptions, the F35 is still assumed to be 10% more.
Perry said it would be ironic if Trump succeeded in quickly driving down the cost to the point where both fighters were competitively priced.

"If Trump is able to gets some extra savings out of Lockheed … my guess is you're looking at a 10 per cent cost difference [between the Super Hornet and the F-35]," he said.
(There's a couple of those "if's" I was talking about.)

But I wouldn’t lose too much sleep about Trudeau overspending. That’s a given. He campaigned on it, people voted for it, and now he’s going to exceed your wildest expectations. Hooray! So yeah, I would say affordability needs to play a crucial role in procurement. I get it, wanting the best tool for the job isn’t an affliction limited to military personnel. But I do know that Canada is a country that can’t really afford “good enough”, let alone “the best”. Sorry, but that’s just the reality.


*No egos were hurt in the writing of this post.*
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Old fella »

Let's be reasonable here, this issue smacks of pure politics bar none. PMJT campaigned on not buying the F-35 and he is looking for a way to keep that promise hence the latest on the SH. He wants to punt fighter procurement to a much later date aka beyond 2019 so he can say we didn't buy the F-35 so in effect- promise kept. Fighter purchase isn't a burning issue that a government will fall on......
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Mach1 »

Rockie wrote:I am a proponent of a proper competition
In case it didn't come through, so am I. In fact, that's all that matters to me, is give it a proper competition and no more dicking around with purely political buys. So, we completely agree on that point.
complexintentions wrote: With no disrespect intended to AuxBatOn, a rank and file military pilot knows as much about the dollars and cents of military acquisition as a line pilot knows about managing an airline.
That's a fallacy. There are a lot of line pilots who have managed companies prior to arriving at the airlines, many who have MBA's and a variety of other university degrees. As for the military, officers are trained in exactly this sort of managing in their desk tour. So... nice sound bite but not true.
complexintentions wrote: Non-expert that I am, I’m trying to understand though, how the backers of the F35 look at these articles and view them as a win for their position on the issue of affordability. There was a statement somewhere stating basically “the F18 Super Hornet will cost more and be a far less capable aircraft”. Except, both articles state nothing of the sort regarding cost. Even with the most optimistic assumptions, the F35 is still assumed to be 10% more.
I don't have the time to go back through the articles but one (or perhaps it is information from 2 different articles) states the current going price for an F-35 at $90 million USD while the the F-18 is $123 million USD per aircraft... with 0 offset being offered on the F-18 because it's a small buy of 18 aircraft. Hence, the need for an open competition and then we can buy the fleet we need, not a patch, and perhaps negotiate the price down and the offsets into the deal.

I'm not a proponent for any aircraft, I am a proponent for holding the open competition and picking a plane and buying it. This patch buy is a bad idea and everyone is screaming it from the rooftops and the King just won't listen to his advisers.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Rockie »

Mach1 wrote:That's a fallacy. There are a lot of line pilots who have managed companies prior to arriving at the airlines, many who have MBA's and a variety of other university degrees. As for the military, officers are trained in exactly this sort of managing in their desk tour. So... nice sound bite but not true.
What you're talking about is the rare exception, not the rule. Complex is right - if I had a dollar for every pilot I met who thought they knew how to run an airline or government I'd be rich. To be honest I'd have to throw a loonie in for me too. :lol:
Mach1 wrote:This patch buy is a bad idea and everyone is screaming it from the rooftops and the King just won't listen to his advisers.
Here I disagree as well. We cannot meet our NATO and NORAD commitments with the number of CF-18's we currently have and we needed an immediate increase in numbers. The SH is the obvious best choice for that. Whether or not already having some of those jets influences the overall replacement decision remains to be seen, but that doesn't negate the immediate requirement.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by trampbike »

Rockie wrote: Here I disagree as well. We cannot meet our NATO and NORAD commitments with the number of CF-18's we currently have and we needed an immediate increase in numbers. The SH is the obvious best choice for that. Whether or not already having some of those jets influences the overall replacement decision remains to be seen, but that doesn't negate the immediate requirement.
The RCAF boss seems to disagree with you though.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Rockie »

trampbike wrote:The RCAF boss seems to disagree with you though.
What part?
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by trampbike »

Everything included in what I quoted.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by Rockie »

trampbike wrote:Everything included in what I quoted.
From what I've read they seem to go back and forth depending on who is asked. Canada's NORAD commitment is 36 jets available, NATO commitment is 0 jets. In other words we meet the NATO commitment as long as we're not required to actually do anything, and some interpret that as meeting both commitments. Once NATO needs us to actually do something of course we either have to say "no" to NATO or "no" to NORAD.

Semantics.
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Re: Review Of F-35 Fighter Likely To Yield Lower Price, Faster Production

Post by trampbike »

Sounds more like the government is using semantics to create a "capability gap" in order to not buy F-35s...

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ ... n-decision
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