Question for the wide body guys/gals

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1693
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by Fanblade »

Old fella wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:
gofly wrote:I guess I'm not very smart, and don't have any 705 flying experience, but can somebody explain this to me. Regional carriers are gruelling, I get it. 14+hour days, work 20 days a month, sleep in crappy motels and eat gross motel food - it's bad. But widebody? That was supposed to be the point where you have "arrived", so to speak. Work 8 days a month, nap enroute the plane while relief pilots take over, 1-3 day layovers in 5-star hotels in fancy destinations. Where does this exhausting fatigue come from? Not trolling, btw, just genuinely curious.
Your math doesn't work. How would someone work 8 days a month with 1-3 day layovers?

The reality is 18 days are common on wide body for the majority. 20 if you have training in that month. For every crossing in a month you lose one night of sleep. On the return flight from Europe you are up early on your circadian rhythm clock so it's not a great sleep either. South America scheduling means you do both flights through the night, so two lost nights of sleep per pairing. Each month you lose between 4 and 8 nights of regular sleep. Multiple that by 12 months in a year and see how you feel.

The hotels are pretty good. Not 5 star. Still not your bed.
Question? Lets say you are a left seat wide body pilot for 10-15 yrs and you feel that your body is getting a going over for the reasons you indicated. Can he/she go back to domestic flying on an A320 or the EMB, do you take a pay cut in doing so despite your length of service.
You can bid back to domestic but it would be a pay cut. It's the one nice thing about having so many options at a major airline. It is not often to see it but it does happen. Usually people realize they aren't cut out for overseas as an FO or RP. They never bid overseas again as a result. There are lots of very senior pilots on domestic aircraft. It pays less but you feel better.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2183
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by complexintentions »

I flew domestic multi-sector days for years, and have been flying longhaul for years.

In the former I would have days I was tired after, especially during IROPS in winter. In the latter I have constant fatigue, which is different. When you're tired you can recover with a good night of sleep or two. Fatigue is more general and is more long-term. Some people never fully recover. Burn-out is a real thing.

It doesn't really have much to do with the precise number of days you fly or how nice the hotels are. It's more about constantly shifting your body clock.

I enjoy the longhaul flying greatly due to the equipment, destinations, money, and more days off. In my own situation it's also been about opportunities, living in other places in the world and experiencing things I couldn't if I'd remained with domestic flying.

But it's far harder than the shorthaul, physically. When I "tire" of international flying I would definitely consider returning to domestic flights.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Ancient
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:31 am

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by Ancient »

Thanks for your post complexintentions. I'm at a crossroads in my career with a good overseas opportunity for a long haul position for big bucks and another path of overseas regional for pretty good bucks. At first it was a no brainer for me. Show me the money and the big iron. But now I'm not so sure. I've felt the kind of chronic fatigue you describe when I commuted overseas rotationally and it's truly awful. Like you say it's not something you can fix in a couple nights. It can take weeks or months. I didn't realize how much long haul guys are affected by this until you mentioned it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
flymore
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:35 am

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by flymore »

Another question for the widebody drivers.
How do you kill time during cruise?
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by yycflyguy »

flymore wrote:Another question for the widebody drivers.
How do you kill time during cruise?
Position reports, fuel checks, ATC communications, unique airport operations, weather updates... you know, pilot stuff.

Then the other stuff; eating, studying, family bragging, coffee, debating world politics, solving all the airline problems, more coffee, solving contract issues, cars, girls, motorcycles, more coffee, retirement plans, industry rumours, AvCanada :wink: layover plans, more coffee.... land.
---------- ADS -----------
 
conmachine
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:52 am

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by conmachine »

gofly wrote:I guess I'm not very smart, and don't have any 705 flying experience, but can somebody explain this to me. Regional carriers are gruelling, I get it. 14+hour days, work 20 days a month, sleep in crappy motels and eat gross motel food - it's bad. But widebody? That was supposed to be the point where you have "arrived", so to speak. Work 8 days a month, nap enroute the plane while relief pilots take over, 1-3 day layovers in 5-star hotels in fancy destinations. Where does this exhausting fatigue come from? Not trolling, btw, just genuinely curious.
14 hour days would be great! Try 22 hour days if you can not sleep in the bunk bucking around in turbulence while basking in the radiation over the pole.

I fly wide body 22 days a month, mix of long haul across 12 time zones with night turnarounds at exactly the wrong times. Everyone I work with is doing 100 hours plus a month, minimum rest at home base, do not count the time in the bunk towards legal limits. 18 to 20 hours in the hotel at layovers after traffic and delays, depending where the theoretical 24 hour layover is.

Repeat for 10 years straight. Get leave assigned two or 4 days at a time, then max your hours that month as well. Eventually go sick and get a warning letter for taking sick days.

You have arrived.
---------- ADS -----------
 
sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by sstaurus »

conmachine wrote:
gofly wrote:I guess I'm not very smart, and don't have any 705 flying experience, but can somebody explain this to me. Regional carriers are gruelling, I get it. 14+hour days, work 20 days a month, sleep in crappy motels and eat gross motel food - it's bad. But widebody? That was supposed to be the point where you have "arrived", so to speak. Work 8 days a month, nap enroute the plane while relief pilots take over, 1-3 day layovers in 5-star hotels in fancy destinations. Where does this exhausting fatigue come from? Not trolling, btw, just genuinely curious.
14 hour days would be great! Try 22 hour days if you can not sleep in the bunk bucking around in turbulence while basking in the radiation over the pole.

I fly wide body 22 days a month, mix of long haul across 12 time zones with night turnarounds at exactly the wrong times. Everyone I work with is doing 100 hours plus a month, minimum rest at home base, do not count the time in the bunk towards legal limits. 18 to 20 hours in the hotel at layovers after traffic and delays, depending where the theoretical 24 hour layover is.

Repeat for 10 years straight. Get leave assigned two or 4 days at a time, then max your hours that month as well. Eventually go sick and get a warning letter for taking sick days.

You have arrived.
This can't be a Canadian carrier... Right?
---------- ADS -----------
 
PROC_HDG
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:52 pm

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by PROC_HDG »

sstaurus wrote:
conmachine wrote:
gofly wrote:I guess I'm not very smart, and don't have any 705 flying experience, but can somebody explain this to me. Regional carriers are gruelling, I get it. 14+hour days, work 20 days a month, sleep in crappy motels and eat gross motel food - it's bad. But widebody? That was supposed to be the point where you have "arrived", so to speak. Work 8 days a month, nap enroute the plane while relief pilots take over, 1-3 day layovers in 5-star hotels in fancy destinations. Where does this exhausting fatigue come from? Not trolling, btw, just genuinely curious.
14 hour days would be great! Try 22 hour days if you can not sleep in the bunk bucking around in turbulence while basking in the radiation over the pole.

I fly wide body 22 days a month, mix of long haul across 12 time zones with night turnarounds at exactly the wrong times. Everyone I work with is doing 100 hours plus a month, minimum rest at home base, do not count the time in the bunk towards legal limits. 18 to 20 hours in the hotel at layovers after traffic and delays, depending where the theoretical 24 hour layover is.

Repeat for 10 years straight. Get leave assigned two or 4 days at a time, then max your hours that month as well. Eventually go sick and get a warning letter for taking sick days.

You have arrived.
This can't be a Canadian carrier... Right?
This sounds like Emirates to me?

Nobody at AC or WJ is working anything like this.

PROC_HDG
---------- ADS -----------
 
Qdrivermann
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:07 am

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by Qdrivermann »

yycflyguy wrote:
flymore wrote:Another question for the widebody drivers.
How do you kill time during cruise?
Position reports, fuel checks, ATC communications, unique airport operations, weather updates... you know, pilot stuff.

Then the other stuff; eating, studying, family bragging, coffee, debating world politics, solving all the airline problems, more coffee, solving contract issues, cars, girls, motorcycles, more coffee, retirement plans, industry rumours, AvCanada :wink: layover plans, more coffee.... land.
That just about sums up a day at the office!! Pretty funny actually! A hard day flying sure beats a full day of hard work! Hands down!! :)
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Question for the wide body guys/gals

Post by yycflyguy »

PROC_HDG wrote:
sstaurus wrote:
conmachine wrote:
14 hour days would be great! Try 22 hour days if you can not sleep in the bunk bucking around in turbulence while basking in the radiation over the pole.

I fly wide body 22 days a month, mix of long haul across 12 time zones with night turnarounds at exactly the wrong times. Everyone I work with is doing 100 hours plus a month, minimum rest at home base, do not count the time in the bunk towards legal limits. 18 to 20 hours in the hotel at layovers after traffic and delays, depending where the theoretical 24 hour layover is.

Repeat for 10 years straight. Get leave assigned two or 4 days at a time, then max your hours that month as well. Eventually go sick and get a warning letter for taking sick days.

You have arrived.
This can't be a Canadian carrier... Right?
This sounds like Emirates to me?

Nobody at AC or WJ is working anything like this.

PROC_HDG
Might be wrong, but that sounds like a senior FA experience.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”