Journey Log Defect reporting?

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Widgeon Guy
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Journey Log Defect reporting?

#1 Post by Widgeon Guy » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:16 pm

This is a question more directed to how companies handle defects reported verbally, say phoned in after the flight has ended the crew are at home and remember that they forgot to write a defect in the book.
The CAR says it is to be entered by the originator or who found it.
What would you do? What process could you put in the MCM that would keep the auditors both TC & contracted off your back.
I have had guys tell me they found it when they answered the phone and was told, so he wrote it in the book that way.
I would say better then not at all!
All we want to do is fix it,, so it can fly in the morning.

Any ideas?
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#2 Post by crazyaviator » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:03 pm

Hmmmm,,,,, Logbook entry Captain ____ phone reported defect at ( time ) as follows ,,,,,,, AME Sign and Lic # ?
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#3 Post by Widgeon Guy » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:07 pm

Well that is what I think as well. I have talked to a couple of airline guys they say they enter pilot reports often.
And do much as you describe. I will have to check what their MCM says.
And I would argue with a auditor any day saying the AME did the safe and efficient thing. How ever some people will do secret unsafe practices just so they can show they were compliant on paper.
Best bet is to be transparent.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#4 Post by FrozenWrench » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:08 am

Depending on situation and location I seen both done of the captain coming back to airfield to make the entry in the logbook that was forgotten or whoever is in the office at the time of the reported snag making the snag entry start " Pilots reported ______"
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#5 Post by openendwrench » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:06 am

CAR 605 Schedule I is pretty clear with respect to what must be recorded in the Journey Log Book.

Particulars - Any defect in any part of the aircraft or its equipment that becomes apparent during flight operations
When - As soon as practicable after the defect is discovered but, at the latest, before the next flight
By who - The pilot-in-command of the aircraft

It doesn't say anything about verbal reporting of defects.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#6 Post by photofly » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:44 am

It doesn't say "write", it says "record". I don't see why dictating an entry doesn't count as "record".
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#7 Post by Widgeon Guy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:09 am

Yes you are correct, no mistaking that. So what can a company do when a pilot phones in a defect that he thinks needs addressing. He is not available lets say for two weeks. As an AME or DOM that needs that a/c to work to keep the company in business what can he do? Depending on the defect the AME needs to control the book as a safety concern?
In a wrongful death lawsuit or someone living with the thought they could have prevented an incident what is the acceptable way to fix that a/c, when the CAR is black and white?

An ideas?
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#8 Post by robertw » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:32 pm

photofly wrote:It doesn't say "write", it says "record". I don't see why dictating an entry doesn't count as "record".
If it's dictated, where is the record of it? If no one "records" the dictation then dictation is not a record. CAR's are clear. The details of the defect discovered in flight are required to be entered into the journey log by the person in command of the aircraft. If they are not doing that, they are contravening regulations. If a pilot phones in a defect, I would have no hesitation writing it into the journey log myself and then dealing with the mechanical issue.

The bigger issue to deal with is the pilot who "forgot" to put the entry into the logbook. That needs to be reported to the companies DOM / Maintenance Manager as that is a huge safety issue. What if he "forgot" completely and a defect that affects the safety of subsequent flights goes unreported? In my mind that's a big deal. I know that it's common practice to keep an unofficial list of snags that are not in the book, but that's totally a dishonest, unprofessional and an amateur way of handling aircraft maintenance.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#9 Post by photofly » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:37 pm

Where is the record? It's dictated over the phone to someone who writes it word-by-word into the Journey Log as the words are spoken. (c.f. dictation). The record is in the JL as it should be.

I do agree that not remembering to make the record at the end of the flight is the problem that needs to be addressed.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#10 Post by robertw » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:32 pm

photofly wrote:Where is the record? It's dictated over the phone to someone who writes it word-by-word into the Journey Log as the words are spoken. (c.f. dictation). The record is in the JL as it should be.
Ok, I guess we're talking about the same type of scenario. Question being though, if the pilot can take the time to phone in the defect why can't they just take the time to write it in the journey log? They likely wouldn't forget some item on a checklist or other flight related operation, so why forget the defect recording?

It's the responsibility of the PIC to do it, so they should do it.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#11 Post by Widgeon Guy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:45 pm

Thanks for everyone's input. I will post what I find out and run it by you all.
Please feel free to add any ideas.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#12 Post by robertw » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 pm

The MCM cannot contradict what the regulations require. In this case, they say the PIC must do it, so that is how it must appear in the MCM defect recording procedures. I've seen several MCM's and never seen an alternate means of recording flight discovered defects.

I think that a good method to ensure pilots didn't "forget" to enter their defects is to either force them to return to the hangar to enter them or add a line to the shutdown checklist to "RECORD YOUR DEFECTS".
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#13 Post by photofly » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:12 am

robertw wrote:The MCM cannot contradict what the regulations require. In this case, they say the PIC must do it, so that is how it must appear in the MCM defect recording procedures. I've seen several MCM's and never seen an alternate means of recording flight discovered defects.

I think that a good method to ensure pilots didn't "forget" to enter their defects is to either force them to return to the hangar to enter them or add a line to the shutdown checklist to "RECORD YOUR DEFECTS".
It's so typical of the aviation industry to try to solve every human factors problem either by increasing a punishment, lengthening a checklist, or both. It's like nobody learned anything in the last one hundred years.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#14 Post by Ricktye » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:30 am

Concur! It's been required to enter defects in the aircraft journey log for longer than any of us have been alive. There should be no further requirement to increase punishment or lengthen a checklist. Every pilot that receives a licence knows of this requirement since he had to start filling out logbooks. "Forgetting" to me means he doesn't pay enough attention to detail (no a good trait in a pilot) or doesn't give a sh1t about doing things right, again not a good trait! Anything else is just excuses.....
photofly wrote:
robertw wrote:The MCM cannot contradict what the regulations require. In this case, they say the PIC must do it, so that is how it must appear in the MCM defect recording procedures. I've seen several MCM's and never seen an alternate means of recording flight discovered defects.

I think that a good method to ensure pilots didn't "forget" to enter their defects is to either force them to return to the hangar to enter them or add a line to the shutdown checklist to "RECORD YOUR DEFECTS".
It's so typical of the aviation industry to try to solve every human factors problem either by increasing a punishment, lengthening a checklist, or both. It's like nobody learned anything in the last one hundred years.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#15 Post by robertw » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:46 am

photofly wrote:It's so typical of the aviation industry to try to solve every human factors problem either by increasing a punishment, lengthening a checklist, or both. It's like nobody learned anything in the last one hundred years.
Ricktye wrote:Concur! It's been required to enter defects in the aircraft journey log for longer than any of us have been alive. There should be no further requirement to increase punishment or lengthen a checklist. Every pilot that receives a licence knows of this requirement since he had to start filling out logbooks. "Forgetting" to me means he doesn't pay enough attention to detail (no a good trait in a pilot) or doesn't give a sh1t about doing things right, again not a good trait! Anything else is just excuses.....
Point taken guys, but what do you suggest? If people are not doing their job, what measures should be taken to make a point that they need to do it? I don't see how making a guy or gal come back to the hangar or adding to their checklist is a punishment though. It's getting them to do their job.

Sheesh... Imagine if AME's left engine cowls open on a regular basis after maintenance and the pilot had to close it all up before flight. I doubt that would continue very long...
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#16 Post by Heliian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:38 am

If the person forgot to write a defect in, it is acceptable to write it in as "pilot reported".

I don't understand why it's such a difficult concept for some. If you have a defect you put it in the defect log. period. full stop.
There is no punishment for defect reporting and as an AME, I will happily diagnose and sign off your defects, perceived or otherwise. Defect: Mouse in cockpit. Rectification: Cat installed.

Sticky note and verbal defects are unacceptable. This is how TC wants it done.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#17 Post by crazyaviator » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:14 pm

Sticky note and verbal defects are unacceptable.
Sadly, that appears to be the norm in most 703-704 ops.

I did an inspection on a Twin Cessna in BC once, ended up about 2 pages full of defects written into the logbooks,,,,,, A/C grounded, still sitting there 3+ years later. The AMO I worked for did things by the book,, I LOVED IT !!!!!
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#18 Post by 5x5 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:34 am

We all need to be responsible as well when it comes to quoting regulations. 605 Schedule 1 actually says "Person Responsible for Entry" not "By Who" when describing how the entry gets into the logbook. Certainly directing someone else to make the entry via dictation would satisfy that requirement.

As quoted correctly, it also says that the entry can be made at anytime following the flight but "at the latest, before the next flight." There is no requirement to do it immediately following the flight. I do agree that right after the flight often makes the most sense, but your particular companies MCM may make specific provisions for alternate reporting and physical recording procedures.

Regardless, I absolutely agree that whatever methods are used all defects must be recorded and dealt with appropriately for the safety of all.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#19 Post by DonutHole » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:20 pm

it's not that it happened, it is how you deal with it.

At this point if you can't get the pilot to come in to make the entry you have basically one option if you want to be compliant.

You have somebody enter the defect in the logbook as a pilot report and then you make a non-conformance finding outlining the procedural error. then you will have to do a root cause analysis, short term and long term corrective actions.

If you do that you will be fine.

Companies make procedural errors. Procedural errors are pretty much what the regulator is looking for. They have to be satisfied that your maintenance is under control, and to do this they want you to follow the procedures in your MCM. If you find that a procedure has not been followed you can rectify it in house by using your quality assurance program to identify the shortcoming in procedure and rectify it (Or attempt to rectify it) wiith a finding and a follow up audit.

it can turn out looking like a good thing if you have a simple procedural error (or even a major procedural error) and you catch it with your in house quality assurance program. It shows that a. your company, like every other company out there made and error and 2. you recorded and dealt with the error using the tools you have to identify and rectify. That is how it is supposed to work, that is the way the regulator wants it to work.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#20 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:55 am

5x5 wrote:We all need to be responsible as well when it comes to quoting regulations. 605 Schedule 1 actually says "Person Responsible for Entry" not "By Who" when describing how the entry gets into the logbook. Certainly directing someone else to make the entry via dictation would satisfy that requirement.
As 5x5 said, the regulations do not say who has to put pen to paper. The way it's written in the CARs, a pilot can legally call in and say "please write this in the book for me...". No need to have a finding as there isn't anything to find.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... l#s-605.97
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#21 Post by helicopterray » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:13 pm

I used to make entries stating 'Pilot reported defect..." and rectify it. The company changed it's procedures to state that if the defect was noted in flight, the pilot must make the log book entry.
If the pilot did not in the above example, it was not rectified. A second pilot, or the chief pilot, would make a flight to confirm the defect, and enter it in the log book.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#22 Post by DonutHole » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:35 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
5x5 wrote:We all need to be responsible as well when it comes to quoting regulations. 605 Schedule 1 actually says "Person Responsible for Entry" not "By Who" when describing how the entry gets into the logbook. Certainly directing someone else to make the entry via dictation would satisfy that requirement.
As 5x5 said, the regulations do not say who has to put pen to paper. The way it's written in the CARs, a pilot can legally call in and say "please write this in the book for me...". No need to have a finding as there isn't anything to find.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... l#s-605.97
"person responsible for the entry" not by who.

"By who" is specified in the mcm as "the pilot"

If the MCM is written to say the pilot must enter the defect in the log, then the pilot must write the defect in the log. Your mcm is not contradicting the cars in this instance, the car tells you which information must be put in the logbook, the MCM specifies who does it. That is the entire point of maintenance control. The MCM is the system that sets up how these procedures ensure your company is meeting the regulations.

Don't forget, if you do not follow your MCM you WILL be in contravention of the regulations. These are the small procedural errors transport will eat you alive for.

the finding is not that a CAR has been contravened, but that the MCM procedures have not been met.

Even if you feel the MCM does contradict the CAR It doesn't matter in this case because the approved MCM is *MORE* restrictive than the CAR. An example I run into is Service Bulletins, not all are mandatory, but if your mcm says you follow all service bulletins, even though the CARs dont specify them all as mandatory, you've written yourself into complying with all service bulletins.

If you had a pvi, and you've not done a service bulletin because it wasnt marked mandatory by the manufacturer and your case is "the cars dont require it" transport is going to come right back at you with an angry "but your mcm says you do" you have no defense.

If your mcm is set up in such a way that youve imposed tighter limits on your business than the cars do, that is why audit procedures and findings were put in place, so a company can identify these overly onerous parts of their procedures and make a case to have the mcm relaxed to reflect the cars, but until that procedure is modified and signed off on by transport you are obliged to follow it.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#23 Post by DonutHole » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:10 pm

this entire discussion should have been refaced with talk of the MCM.

Somebody with great wisdom, presumably, created your MCM in such a way that if it is followed you will be in compliance with all of the regulations.

The functional point of this is that, if followed, the people using these procedures do not have to constantly refer back to the CARS to ensure regulatory compliance.

It is important to follow these procedures, essentially through the dir these procedures become your 'operational checklists'

For sure, your aircraft can be maintained to an airworthy status without following your MCM. The problem is, if you show that you are not following your MCM transport will dig for errors that have occurred, and if they find that this was a result of your MCM not being followed then you have a 'can of worms' situation, unless you have made a finding and corrective action plan to address the issue. If you have not done that then you will find yourself at the business end of a federal non-conformance finding, which can be a huge deal.

Legally, the information of the defect in the logbook with it's proper rectification is all that is important. This will keep you safe from lawsuits. Operationally, how the information ended up in the logbook is all that is important, to the regulator.

If you want to know the answer to your question, ask either your PRM, DOM, or QAM, or go directly to the source and read your MCM to see what you need to do to be in compliance with it.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#24 Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:02 pm

I'm well aware of that, however we were discussing regulatory requirements, not specific details in your company's MCM. I don't imagine that document is publicly available.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

#25 Post by DonutHole » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:00 pm

The regulatory requirements are a red herring, they have to be met. How the AMO meets those requirements is set up in the MCM.

You could be compliant iaw the requisite cars, but you can be non-compliant under your mcm.

Simply reading the car and coming to the conclusion that anybody can put the defect in the book can be an erroneous conclusion.

There is a CAR that says you have to have an mcm and operate in accordance with it. Defect reporting and recording is the bread and butter of the MCM, the controlled reporting and recording of defects is a big part of the text within the MCM, it establishes the base for the control the manual is intended to implement... you have to do what the MCM says, and if you want to change it, or operate outside of it,there is a process.

By complying with the car in a method that is not put forth in your MCM you are in violation, period end of sentence. You have to operate under the procedures outlined in your MCM, and if it contradicts the CARs the solution isnt to disregard the problem and have somebody put the defect in the log, it is to generate a finding outlining the contradiction and propose an amendment to the text in the MCM.

THe mcms I am familiar with for the most part state that in flight defects are to be entered by the pilot in command immediately, or as soon as practicable but definitely before the next flight. I feel as if this is the standard nomenclature for the procedure.

Your MCM will tell you what to do.

Im not disregarding the CAR and discussion over the semantics is important, but it is equally as important to be operating within the parameters set forth by your MCM. If you want to diverge, or have to diverge, you definitely need to make a finding.

Im not pulling this out of my rear either. Transport Canada is looking specifically for your compliance with your own procedures, that is why quality assurance has become an essential part of the AMO and it is super important to use your quality assurance program to record and monitor these types of happenings, its nothing to be afraid of, it's how the system is supposed to work.
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