Journey Log Defect reporting?

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Widgeon Guy
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Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by Widgeon Guy »

This is a question more directed to how companies handle defects reported verbally, say phoned in after the flight has ended the crew are at home and remember that they forgot to write a defect in the book.
The CAR says it is to be entered by the originator or who found it.
What would you do? What process could you put in the MCM that would keep the auditors both TC & contracted off your back.
I have had guys tell me they found it when they answered the phone and was told, so he wrote it in the book that way.
I would say better then not at all!
All we want to do is fix it,, so it can fly in the morning.

Any ideas?
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crazyaviator
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by crazyaviator »

Hmmmm,,,,, Logbook entry Captain ____ phone reported defect at ( time ) as follows ,,,,,,, AME Sign and Lic # ?
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Widgeon Guy
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by Widgeon Guy »

Well that is what I think as well. I have talked to a couple of airline guys they say they enter pilot reports often.
And do much as you describe. I will have to check what their MCM says.
And I would argue with a auditor any day saying the AME did the safe and efficient thing. How ever some people will do secret unsafe practices just so they can show they were compliant on paper.
Best bet is to be transparent.
Thanks
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FrozenWrench
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by FrozenWrench »

Depending on situation and location I seen both done of the captain coming back to airfield to make the entry in the logbook that was forgotten or whoever is in the office at the time of the reported snag making the snag entry start " Pilots reported ______"
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openendwrench
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by openendwrench »

CAR 605 Schedule I is pretty clear with respect to what must be recorded in the Journey Log Book.

Particulars - Any defect in any part of the aircraft or its equipment that becomes apparent during flight operations
When - As soon as practicable after the defect is discovered but, at the latest, before the next flight
By who - The pilot-in-command of the aircraft

It doesn't say anything about verbal reporting of defects.
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photofly
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by photofly »

It doesn't say "write", it says "record". I don't see why dictating an entry doesn't count as "record".
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Widgeon Guy
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by Widgeon Guy »

Yes you are correct, no mistaking that. So what can a company do when a pilot phones in a defect that he thinks needs addressing. He is not available lets say for two weeks. As an AME or DOM that needs that a/c to work to keep the company in business what can he do? Depending on the defect the AME needs to control the book as a safety concern?
In a wrongful death lawsuit or someone living with the thought they could have prevented an incident what is the acceptable way to fix that a/c, when the CAR is black and white?

An ideas?
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robertw
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by robertw »

photofly wrote:It doesn't say "write", it says "record". I don't see why dictating an entry doesn't count as "record".
If it's dictated, where is the record of it? If no one "records" the dictation then dictation is not a record. CAR's are clear. The details of the defect discovered in flight are required to be entered into the journey log by the person in command of the aircraft. If they are not doing that, they are contravening regulations. If a pilot phones in a defect, I would have no hesitation writing it into the journey log myself and then dealing with the mechanical issue.

The bigger issue to deal with is the pilot who "forgot" to put the entry into the logbook. That needs to be reported to the companies DOM / Maintenance Manager as that is a huge safety issue. What if he "forgot" completely and a defect that affects the safety of subsequent flights goes unreported? In my mind that's a big deal. I know that it's common practice to keep an unofficial list of snags that are not in the book, but that's totally a dishonest, unprofessional and an amateur way of handling aircraft maintenance.
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photofly
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by photofly »

Where is the record? It's dictated over the phone to someone who writes it word-by-word into the Journey Log as the words are spoken. (c.f. dictation). The record is in the JL as it should be.

I do agree that not remembering to make the record at the end of the flight is the problem that needs to be addressed.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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robertw
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by robertw »

photofly wrote:Where is the record? It's dictated over the phone to someone who writes it word-by-word into the Journey Log as the words are spoken. (c.f. dictation). The record is in the JL as it should be.
Ok, I guess we're talking about the same type of scenario. Question being though, if the pilot can take the time to phone in the defect why can't they just take the time to write it in the journey log? They likely wouldn't forget some item on a checklist or other flight related operation, so why forget the defect recording?

It's the responsibility of the PIC to do it, so they should do it.
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Widgeon Guy
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by Widgeon Guy »

Thanks for everyone's input. I will post what I find out and run it by you all.
Please feel free to add any ideas.
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robertw
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by robertw »

The MCM cannot contradict what the regulations require. In this case, they say the PIC must do it, so that is how it must appear in the MCM defect recording procedures. I've seen several MCM's and never seen an alternate means of recording flight discovered defects.

I think that a good method to ensure pilots didn't "forget" to enter their defects is to either force them to return to the hangar to enter them or add a line to the shutdown checklist to "RECORD YOUR DEFECTS".
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photofly
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by photofly »

robertw wrote:The MCM cannot contradict what the regulations require. In this case, they say the PIC must do it, so that is how it must appear in the MCM defect recording procedures. I've seen several MCM's and never seen an alternate means of recording flight discovered defects.

I think that a good method to ensure pilots didn't "forget" to enter their defects is to either force them to return to the hangar to enter them or add a line to the shutdown checklist to "RECORD YOUR DEFECTS".
It's so typical of the aviation industry to try to solve every human factors problem either by increasing a punishment, lengthening a checklist, or both. It's like nobody learned anything in the last one hundred years.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Ricktye
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by Ricktye »

Concur! It's been required to enter defects in the aircraft journey log for longer than any of us have been alive. There should be no further requirement to increase punishment or lengthen a checklist. Every pilot that receives a licence knows of this requirement since he had to start filling out logbooks. "Forgetting" to me means he doesn't pay enough attention to detail (no a good trait in a pilot) or doesn't give a sh1t about doing things right, again not a good trait! Anything else is just excuses.....
photofly wrote:
robertw wrote:The MCM cannot contradict what the regulations require. In this case, they say the PIC must do it, so that is how it must appear in the MCM defect recording procedures. I've seen several MCM's and never seen an alternate means of recording flight discovered defects.

I think that a good method to ensure pilots didn't "forget" to enter their defects is to either force them to return to the hangar to enter them or add a line to the shutdown checklist to "RECORD YOUR DEFECTS".
It's so typical of the aviation industry to try to solve every human factors problem either by increasing a punishment, lengthening a checklist, or both. It's like nobody learned anything in the last one hundred years.
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robertw
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by robertw »

photofly wrote:It's so typical of the aviation industry to try to solve every human factors problem either by increasing a punishment, lengthening a checklist, or both. It's like nobody learned anything in the last one hundred years.
Ricktye wrote:Concur! It's been required to enter defects in the aircraft journey log for longer than any of us have been alive. There should be no further requirement to increase punishment or lengthen a checklist. Every pilot that receives a licence knows of this requirement since he had to start filling out logbooks. "Forgetting" to me means he doesn't pay enough attention to detail (no a good trait in a pilot) or doesn't give a sh1t about doing things right, again not a good trait! Anything else is just excuses.....
Point taken guys, but what do you suggest? If people are not doing their job, what measures should be taken to make a point that they need to do it? I don't see how making a guy or gal come back to the hangar or adding to their checklist is a punishment though. It's getting them to do their job.

Sheesh... Imagine if AME's left engine cowls open on a regular basis after maintenance and the pilot had to close it all up before flight. I doubt that would continue very long...
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Heliian
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by Heliian »

If the person forgot to write a defect in, it is acceptable to write it in as "pilot reported".

I don't understand why it's such a difficult concept for some. If you have a defect you put it in the defect log. period. full stop.
There is no punishment for defect reporting and as an AME, I will happily diagnose and sign off your defects, perceived or otherwise. Defect: Mouse in cockpit. Rectification: Cat installed.

Sticky note and verbal defects are unacceptable. This is how TC wants it done.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by crazyaviator »

Sticky note and verbal defects are unacceptable.
Sadly, that appears to be the norm in most 703-704 ops.

I did an inspection on a Twin Cessna in BC once, ended up about 2 pages full of defects written into the logbooks,,,,,, A/C grounded, still sitting there 3+ years later. The AMO I worked for did things by the book,, I LOVED IT !!!!!
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5x5
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by 5x5 »

We all need to be responsible as well when it comes to quoting regulations. 605 Schedule 1 actually says "Person Responsible for Entry" not "By Who" when describing how the entry gets into the logbook. Certainly directing someone else to make the entry via dictation would satisfy that requirement.

As quoted correctly, it also says that the entry can be made at anytime following the flight but "at the latest, before the next flight." There is no requirement to do it immediately following the flight. I do agree that right after the flight often makes the most sense, but your particular companies MCM may make specific provisions for alternate reporting and physical recording procedures.

Regardless, I absolutely agree that whatever methods are used all defects must be recorded and dealt with appropriately for the safety of all.
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by DonutHole »

it's not that it happened, it is how you deal with it.

At this point if you can't get the pilot to come in to make the entry you have basically one option if you want to be compliant.

You have somebody enter the defect in the logbook as a pilot report and then you make a non-conformance finding outlining the procedural error. then you will have to do a root cause analysis, short term and long term corrective actions.

If you do that you will be fine.

Companies make procedural errors. Procedural errors are pretty much what the regulator is looking for. They have to be satisfied that your maintenance is under control, and to do this they want you to follow the procedures in your MCM. If you find that a procedure has not been followed you can rectify it in house by using your quality assurance program to identify the shortcoming in procedure and rectify it (Or attempt to rectify it) wiith a finding and a follow up audit.

it can turn out looking like a good thing if you have a simple procedural error (or even a major procedural error) and you catch it with your in house quality assurance program. It shows that a. your company, like every other company out there made and error and 2. you recorded and dealt with the error using the tools you have to identify and rectify. That is how it is supposed to work, that is the way the regulator wants it to work.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Journey Log Defect reporting?

Post by goingnowherefast »

5x5 wrote:We all need to be responsible as well when it comes to quoting regulations. 605 Schedule 1 actually says "Person Responsible for Entry" not "By Who" when describing how the entry gets into the logbook. Certainly directing someone else to make the entry via dictation would satisfy that requirement.
As 5x5 said, the regulations do not say who has to put pen to paper. The way it's written in the CARs, a pilot can legally call in and say "please write this in the book for me...". No need to have a finding as there isn't anything to find.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... l#s-605.97
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