AC A320 slides off runway at YYZ

[cossack]

More YYZ bashing for no good reason.

Was there any reason to evacuate the aircraft? Apparently not.
No buses at YYZ after midnight? Shocking. Lets have 3 guys sitting in their buses just in case from now on.

Sky clear and crosswind, use the 06's and 05.

Light winds and low vis, land aircraft on the shortest wet runway with no centerline lighting: 15R....

Got to love CYYZ. Never surprised.

Your first line describes the usual operation where we are capacity constrained and using the E-W runways with a high crosswind to maintain the capacity that your airlines demand. We'd happily go to the 33s or 15s and you can sit on the ground elsewhere for a couple of hours.

I wasn't working but it takes something out of the ordinary to put YYZ onto the 15s. Where were the TS cells? Maybe that was the driving factor here. 15R is the shortest runway but its not that short. It was reduced vis not low vis. Big difference.

Right!

Poor, poor job being done there...

Crew probably didn't find out the runway until 3/4 way down the STAR too...

And you know that because... Where were you at the time?

Not like it was sudden. At 0300Z, VV0.

My Jepps show 15R is Cat 1 only.

There are certain annoying aspects of European airport operations, but one thing I do like is they go into LVO ops long before the weather is this bad.

Weather was within limits for that runway. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have landed on it. Why they didn't stay on it is a separate matter.
We don't go into LVO before the weather dictates it. There is RVO first and all runways in YYZ are available for RVO. If we went LVO and advertised Cat2 and 3 only the airlines would say we are being too restrictive. Can't have it both ways.

If the tire caused the excursion it wouldn't matter which runway they landed on.

Get a grip.

[Bede]

Ottawa has grooved runway

I was thinking more of MIA-type of grooves. The one's that actually work.

[complexintentions]

If we went LVO and advertised Cat2 and 3 only the airlines would say we are being too restrictive. Can't have it both ways.

Yeeeahhh I call bullshit on this one. Going into LVO with VV100 isn't exactly radical. I've never heard about airlines going into LHR/FRA/AMS complaining about having to hold because of LVO ops with wx as reported during the incident flight.

Why not just admit that even with the highest landing fees in the world the airport doesn't even have centreline lighting or approaches above Cat 1 on most runways? Not saying that it contributed to AC's offroading adventure but come on. It's 2017. The aircraft are equipped, time for Canada to join the modern age.

Rockie, does this mean you're not going to bid the 624/623 pairing anymore?

Seriously though, I don't agree with your objection to speculation, as long as it's expressed as such and not fact. I know it's hard to tell sometimes, but there actually is a fair bit of intelligence on this forum mixed into the nonsense, and healthy theorizing at least gets people thinking about threats and possible ways to counter them. I only tease because the incident seems fairly benign as they go, there'd be no joking around if it was something more serious.

[Ancient]

For the last 5 years we've been seeing reports from watchdogs saying automation is dulling airline pilots skills. Perhaps we are now seeing that come to roost. That Montego Bay report was shocking to read. Can't say I've read the YHZ report yet. We have been very very lucky that no one has been killed in these near disasters. I hope it won't take fatalities for there to be a change in the industry if there is a trend developing. I don't think airplanes landing short, or wide, or hard is benign.

[complexintentions]

They didn't land wide, short, long, or hard. They landed, and then were not able to stay on the runway. Why? Don't know yet. But given the apparently minimal damage and total lack of injuries and fatalities, yeah I'd say it's pretty benign as incidents go.

Don't cherry-pick my words, please.

[FICU]

You can't groove runways in such cold climates because of ice expansion in the grooves during the winter.

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

[cossack]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

[GyvAir]

Ottawa has grooved runway

I was thinking more of MIA-type of grooves. The one's that actually work.

What are differences between the grooving in Ottawa vs MIA?
I tried a bit of googling, but didn't come up with anything definitive.

[av8ts]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

The poster said you can't groove in cold climates. The number of flights is irrelevant to weather you can groove or not

[We_tu_lo]

They didn't land wide, short, long, or hard. They landed, and then were not able to stay on the runway. Why? Don't know yet. But given the apparently minimal damage and total lack of injuries and fatalities, yeah I'd say it's pretty benign as incidents go.

Don't cherry-pick my words, please.

I'd like to see a source for this. 3rd degree rumours I've heard say otherwise.

[GyvAir]

Somebody reading this must have seen the tracks. How down the runway were they when the wheels left the runway? (Wouldn't tell the whole story, of course, but if the muddy tracks start at the numbers, it would indicate having missed the runway, rather than sliding off)

[FICU]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

What are you on about?

[Cat Driver]

So the way it now stands no one will tell us if it landed on the runway and went off or if it landed off the runway and went on it.

Why does it take a couple of years to get an answer to such simple questions?

Does keeping these issues secret improve aviation safety?

[cossack]

Norman Wells, NWT is grooved.

Do they push 1000+ flights a day through there in a snow storm? No? Didn't think so.
Oh, sorry. That was sarcasm again.

What are you on about?

The point I was trying to make was during snow at YYZ there are a lot of aircraft still trying to use the airport and we fit the snow clearing in around them.
In Norman Wells the plows can be on the runway almost all day if required, only leaving the field to allow the occasional flight to land or depart, thus spending more time cleaning the surfaces. A luxury not afforded to YYZ. Yes we have a lot of equipment but cleaning a runway in 15 minutes is the aim, not necessarily making it perfect, just usable.

[cossack]

The poster said you can't groove in cold climates. The number of flights is irrelevant to weather you can groove or not

I wasn't that poster. I am of the opinion that trying to clear snow and ice off a grooved runway that is still being used extensively will be more problematic than doing so on an un-grooved runway.

[pelmet]

I will say though that departing the side of the runways is not the same as landing short of it.

Either way AC's safety rating is going down again as it did for 2016 after the Halifax incident.

[GyvAir]

I am of the opinion that trying to clear snow and ice off a grooved runway that is still being used extensively will be more problematic than doing so on an un-grooved runway.

What would the differences be in how they handle snow and ice removal?

[cossack]

What would the differences be in how they handle snow and ice removal?

They would have less time pressure. At YYZ it's all about getting them done ASAP, whereas somewhere with less traffic can take more time. I still think once the grooves are full of snow and ice, it will be all but Impossible to keep the runway usable by large types.

[Eric Janson]

Weather was within limits for that runway. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have landed on it. Why they didn't stay on it is a separate matter.
We don't go into LVO before the weather dictates it. There is RVO first and all runways in YYZ are available for RVO. If we went LVO and advertised Cat2 and 3 only the airlines would say we are being too restrictive. Can't have it both ways.

For everyone's info major airports in Europe have several phases of LVO depending on ceiling and visibility.

Example:- Amsterdam Schiphol Airport has 4 phases (A/B/C/D). Reference is Jeppesen EHAM chart 10-1P1.

Disclaimer:- I don't work for Air Canada

All the A320's I've ever flown have been fully Cat3b capable - that includes aircraft with serial numbers around 150.

I would normally only make an autoland off a Cat1 ILS in VFR conditions and even then I'd be very reluctant to do it. Plenty that can go wrong.

I can't imagine any Airline crew doing an autoland off a Cat1 ILS in marginal conditions.

[rxl]

What would the differences be in how they handle snow and ice removal?

They would have less time pressure. At YYZ it's all about getting them done ASAP, whereas somewhere with less traffic can take more time. I still think once the grooves are full of snow and ice, it will be all but Impossible to keep the runway usable by large types.

How about MSP for comparison? An airport that moves a comparable number of flights to YYZ with a similar climate has all runways grooved. I have operated there many times in the winter and they have no problem keeping the runways in good shape.
I have no idea what happened in this particular incident but in general grooved runways make a big improvement in stopping an airplane.