Sunwing Cadet Program

[Eric Janson]

Low time military pilots and European cadet programs are often correctly cited as proof that it can be done. What's not often mentioned is that there is in place at both an initial training, and more importantly a continuing training ang monitoring program to make up for lack of experience. Speaking for the military at least the training never actually stops even once you're qualified.

I've flown with plenty of low time Pilots including cadets at a South Asian Flag Carrier.

Cadets basically did a 2 year program with a number of additional Sim sessions and a lot of extra line training before being released. I used to get them after they were released from Line Training. They knew the books inside out but needed some help with the practical side of flying - not really a surprise.

I never had to take control from any of them and I never had a "dual input" event. I had to issue verbal commands to stop a rapidly deteriorating situation a few times but that's as bad is it got.

In Europe I had a 19 year old F/O on the 757 who was straight out of flying school. Very sharp - you only had to tell him once. Ironically he could fly the 757 across the Atlantic but was too young to rent a car in Canada!


I have to say I don't like the title of this thread or the tone of some of the posts.

This thread stays but the Trump Election thread (one of the best on here for a long time imho) was deleted.

I don't get it - everyone was up in arms about TFW's and now Canadian citizens are being hired it's still not ok? WTF?

[Gino Under]

Sunwing may be seeing signs of a pilot shortage because Canadian pilots now know the M O of this outfit and are starting to avoid it.
They reap what they sow.

Gino Under

[complexintentions]

Sunwing may be seeing signs of a pilot shortage because Canadian pilots now know the M O of this outfit and are starting to avoid it.

What do you mean the MO? The TFW's? If that were true, wouldn't "avoiding" Sunwing by not applying exacerbate the problem by giving them more grounds to bring in more TFW's?

I highly doubt Sunwing is short of Canadian applicants eager to fly the NG. But definitely short of the rated pilots they'd prefer. So my guess is they've determined that if they can't bring in typed TWF's, and they have to train pilots themselves, they might as well use ab initio pilots which effectively bonds them to the employer.

I don't get it - everyone was up in arms about TFW's and now Canadian citizens are being hired it's still not ok? WTF?

Yeah, the thread title is pretty bad. "Scab" as it refers to labour disputes is a term historically reserved for someone who takes the work of a striking employee at a company during a strike - how is this remotely applicable here? Completely unfair to some young guys/girls probably pretty excited about a tremendous opportunity. I'm not a fan of Sunwing but to take it out on legitimately-hired new pilots is just brutal. Are the mods sleeping or is the use of slurs acceptable in some situations and not others?

As for the "WTF?", I'm telling ya, it's just simple, sour grapes, petty jealousy. It's ingrained in the cultural DNA.

[olddirtyloud]

I heard after all the cancelled flights to CYSB earlier in the week, a "Cadet" was forced to drive a car from YYZ to YSB to position for the flight! If they can't tell them to F Off for something like that, you think they will stand up to a captain? CRM disaster waiting to happen....

[olddirtyloud]

A Sunwing Boeing 737-86J (C-FWGH/SWG522) enroute from Puerto Vallarta, MX(MMPR) to Toronto, ON (CYYZ) initiated a missed approach to Runway 15L due to unstable approach and landed Runway 15L at 0722Z.

18/02/2017 07:00->
METAR CYYZ 180700Z 00000KT 15SM FEW240 M02/M04 A2967 RMK
CI2 SLP057=

[atphat]

A Sunwing Boeing 737-86J (C-FWGH/SWG522) enroute from Puerto Vallarta, MX(MMPR) to Toronto, ON (CYYZ) initiated a missed approach to Runway 15L due to unstable approach and landed Runway 15L at 0722Z.

18/02/2017 07:00->
METAR CYYZ 180700Z 00000KT 15SM FEW240 M02/M04 A2967 RMK
CI2 SLP057=

And the point of this is??? Sounds like the crew did exactly what they were supposed to do.

[sanjet]

A Sunwing Boeing 737-86J (C-FWGH/SWG522) enroute from Puerto Vallarta, MX(MMPR) to Toronto, ON (CYYZ) initiated a missed approach to Runway 15L due to unstable approach and landed Runway 15L at 0722Z.

18/02/2017 07:00->
METAR CYYZ 180700Z 00000KT 15SM FEW240 M02/M04 A2967 RMK
CI2 SLP057=

Isn't that a good thing they did a missed approach? I don't see the point.

[double-j]

15L is notorious for tailwinds on final. Perhaps they couldn't meet stabilized approach criteria and executed the missed approach?

Good job I say.

Carry on with your pitchforks and torches!

JJ

[olddirtyloud]

15L is notorious for tailwinds on final. Perhaps they couldn't meet stabilized approach criteria and executed the missed approach?

Good job I say.

Carry on with your pitchforks and torches!

JJ

Perhaps the cadet couldn't keep a stabilized approach. A 200 hour pilot has 0 business being in the front end of a 737. Especially when they aren't allowed to land at certain airports. What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "

[digits_]

What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "

"Sorry folks, due to a medical emergency on board, we are going to airport XXX instead. No worries, we will get you to your final destination as quickly as possible."

[AuxBatOn]

15L is notorious for tailwinds on final. Perhaps they couldn't meet stabilized approach criteria and executed the missed approach?

Good job I say.

Carry on with your pitchforks and torches!

JJ

Perhaps the cadet couldn't keep a stabilized approach. A 200 hour pilot has 0 business being in the front end of a 737. Especially when they aren't allowed to land at certain airports. What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "

Does a 250-hour guy has any buisness being a FO on a C-17? What about an 800-hour guy as the AC?

[altiplano]

What airports aren't they allowed to land at?

[altiplano]

A 200 hour pilot has 0 business being in the front end of a 737.

Apparently they have all the business in the world to be in that seat, they got hired after all and it's between them and Sunwing.

I'll agree there are certainly marginally more experience pilots in the market for that job, but maybe you'd care to post your resume and that qualifications that allow you to make that statement? Extensive transport category jet training experience?

I understand Sunwing has taken 4 of these guys? Presumably they are hiring guys out of turboprops and such also?

Anyway, U realise it's a bummer to see a job you covet go to someone newer to the industry than you - but it happened to all of us and the industry owes you sh!t ...

[Eric Janson]

Perhaps the cadet couldn't keep a stabilized approach. A 200 hour pilot has 0 business being in the front end of a 737. Especially when they aren't allowed to land at certain airports. What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "

How many hours do you feel are needed to sit in the front end of a 737?

Hours don't equate to competence or ability.

You do understand that there is such a thing as training and a certain standard has to be achieved to obtain a 737 Type Rating no matter how many hours an individual has?

There's nothing unusual about having restrictions on First Officers - most companies I've worked for have had them.

[olddirtyloud]

You can't train experience. Experience is what will save your bacon some day. Eventually someone will let go of your hand and you'll have no "experience" to draw upon.

[AuxBatOn]

You don't think between the time they have 200 hrs and hired by Sunwing to the time they upgrade they'll gain experience?

[olddirtyloud]

Perhaps the cadet couldn't keep a stabilized approach. A 200 hour pilot has 0 business being in the front end of a 737. Especially when they aren't allowed to land at certain airports. What if the captain has a heart attack? "Sorry folks, I'm not allowed to land here so we are all going to die.... "

How many hours do you feel are needed to sit in the front end of a 737?

Hours don't equate to competence or ability.

You do understand that there is such a thing as training and a certain standard has to be achieved to obtain a 737 Type Rating no matter how many hours an individual has?

There's nothing unusual about having restrictions on First Officers - most companies I've worked for have had them.

A monkey can be trained to fly a 737. Does a 200 hour fresh CPL have a clue what the jetstream is? where to avoid it? Do they know what an RFI is? and how its even relevent to a 737? I'm sure these cadets fly the plane fine or they wouldn't be there, but what about the operation aside from just flying? Flying is the easy part..... (But apparently with the tailstrike, its not that easy....)

[gasbag1]

This is an interesting thread. Back in the 70's Air Canada as all the other airline took graduates from Selkirk and few other programs an hired them off the street. Now to get hired at CP they had to fly a DC-3 or a little later a 737 simulator. That program was the same for the 250 hour or 5000 hour candidate. What they were assessing was can you learn and be taught. Most made it some did not. The other relevant item is those hired were accepted as SO's. And of course at that time all aircraft had simple autopilots and you needed good hands and feet. After the early 70's that direct hire out of colleges ceased. Not sure why but I have my suspicions.

The use of automation has dumbed down the requirement to be able to fly an aircraft using your hands and feet. I have flown with many excellent lower experienced pilots and also many other high time pilots who you had to watch like a hawk. Hours is not only the sole factor in being a good pilot but at least it is an indicator that they have some experience to draw from. I can tell you flying with inexperienced crew on any aircraft type is a lot more intensive for the Captain period.

It was normal, "in the day" to hand fly a 737 from 10,000 and below, as I did on an Airbus, turn off the automation once in a while and fly the aircraft I heard more gasps saying, can we do that, or I'd prefer to use the automation please. My reply was, it's an aircraft you CAN fly it.

So from my perspective I am a not to worried that a 250 hour pilot can actually read checklists and operate the Autopilot, it's when the autopilot is not available and the Captain is distracted or not on the flight deck will this low hour pilot be able to keep the jet right side up? An initial conversion course is much shorter than in the past and training has been reduced to a minimum required giving a low hour pilot little background to draw on, so little to help there. Jumping from a Seneca to a 737 is a big leap.

[goingnowherefast]

I don't imagine a king air captain would know much about the jet stream either, or even a Q400 pilot for that matter. They both spend all their time at FL250 or below.

Who's going to be more helpful when there's a line of CBs en route? Probably the guy who's done it before.

Who's going to be more helpful when the pressurization starts doing weird things that has no checklist? Probably not the person with only 172 time.

What about a gear malfunction, fuel leak, bad vector from ATC, alternate craps out, unexpected headwinds create a fuel shortage. I could go on, but it's all something a 3000hr turboprop pilot will have dealt with in the past and will be useful in the flight deck of a 737.

[Old fella]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo2zsZOjqXs

Now when I had 200-300 hrs and a fresh CPL, and not being the brightest light bulb in the aviation chandelier I can honestly say I would have great difficulty with this beast in the gusty xwinds. I had enough trouble with a PA-28. The are a good number of low time folks though who were better than me.