Air Georgian

[rudder]

No fleet expansion for Georgian in 2017?

What about 2018?

[mbav8r]

Just my opinion, that'll depend on whether the new union reps play hardball and go for the moon on the first go, also dependant on a strike mandate, when not if the company plays hardball!

[Black_Tusk]

Good luck trying to strike on Air Canada. We can all see how well that worked out in the past.

[mbav8r]

Good luck trying to strike on Air Canada. We can all see how well that worked out in the past.

My point about any growth at GGN, it'll depend on how negotiations go.

[rudder]

With the pilots and flight attendants at GGN now unionized, the costs have only one way to go and that is up. I don't think that anybody signed a card to work more and get paid less.

Staffing requirements will increase even with no growth (decrease in productivity). Cost of labour will go up (improvements in pay, pension, benefits). This is not the fault of the 'unions'. This is an almost inevitable outcome when a company is an outlier on pay and work rules.

Whatever margin on the CPA that now flows to the GGN owners is about to shrink unless AC agrees to assume the increased labour costs as a pass through (unlikely). The net result will be an eventual levelling of the playing field when it comes to Express labour costs. Labour should never be forced to compete.

[Roger1989]

With the pilots and flight attendants at GGN now unionized, the costs have only one way to go and that is up. I don't think that anybody signed a card to work more and get paid less.

Staffing requirements will increase even with no growth (decrease in productivity). Cost of labour will go up (improvements in pay, pension, benefits). This is not the fault of the 'unions'. This is an almost inevitable outcome when a company is an outlier on pay and work rules.

Whatever margin on the CPA that now flows to the GGN owners is about to shrink unless AC agrees to assume the increased labour costs as a pass through (unlikely). The net result will be an eventual levelling of the playing field when it comes to Express labour costs. Labour should never be forced to compete.

Well put. I can tell you AC will not assume the increased costs. It is all inevitable as you put it that the costs are increasing. georgian is in for a rude awakening. Suddenly the PML carrot will not be so enticing to pilots. Generally the only ones who join and sign simply couldn't get jobs elsewhere and had no choice. I mean why else would one work for such a company? They had approximately 99% vote towards ALPA. Conditions are not great working for them. The guys I know first hand have either left or are in process of leaving even while bonded.

[goingnowherefast]

Some go there simply for the jet time as you can be hired directly for the CRJ. This is in contrast to Jazz where you bid and may not get the jet. This would also be after their Sky Regional application hasn't gone anywhere for various reasons.

Some people simply want 500 or 1000hrs of jet time on their resume before applying overseas and elsewhere. ALPA will make their short stay more pleasant. If the company can't afford unionised pilots and flight attendants? Well, they don't care because they're job searching after 6 months anyway.

[gtanorth]

Some go there simply for the jet time as you can be hired directly for the CRJ. This is in contrast to Jazz where you bid and may not get the jet. This would also be after their Sky Regional application hasn't gone anywhere for various reasons.

Some people simply want 500 or 1000hrs of jet time on their resume before applying overseas and elsewhere. ALPA will make their short stay more pleasant. If the company can't afford unionised pilots and flight attendants? Well, they don't care because they're job searching after 6 months anyway.

Pretty dated opinions above.

[Tanker299]

Incredible reading all of this. People actually think sky is better then ggn! Remember that's Scab regional and was created to bust the union. Ggn has been around longer (as one company) then Jazz and even though the union was not that amazing it at least had one. The CBA ggn had with OREA was better then the one wsg has with ALPA. Also Jazz is not the place it once was yes they still have a better CBA then most but that does not excuse the new 2 class system for the pilots. Everyone still has that jazz fantasy, sorry folks with all the kids there now vs the former 4-6000h FOs that has to wait 4-8 years to upgrade that will just keep going down. You folks go there and make 35k and you line up the door for it. You stab everyone of us in the back by dragging what was once a career company further down. Scab has no Union it's hard to commute to some cites. No Porter jumpseat and a lot of animosity from the other express and mainline pilot groups. 9h45 min rest away from base at least Ggn has 11, Ggn is now alpa so it's only going to be an upward trend. Oh and if you have the time you will A) be a1900 Capt making double what a jazz FO makes or you will be a jet FO that upgrades in 6-12 months

There is no shangri la out there folks it's called work not fun for a reason. There are a lot worse places to work then GGN SKY JAZZ Porter or Dubjay E. You could be at Wasaya, bearskin, Carson or EVAS and the likes.

[goingnowherefast]

Some go there simply for the jet time as you can be hired directly for the CRJ. This is in contrast to Jazz where you bid and may not get the jet. This would also be after their Sky Regional application hasn't gone anywhere for various reasons.

Some people simply want 500 or 1000hrs of jet time on their resume before applying overseas and elsewhere. ALPA will make their short stay more pleasant. If the company can't afford unionised pilots and flight attendants? Well, they don't care because they're job searching after 6 months anyway.

Pretty dated opinions above.

That may be, but the only 2 people I know at Georgian are doing exactly that. One wants the jet time to go overseas, the other wants jet time so he can get to the likes of Sunwing/Transat ASAP.

[gtanorth]

Some go there simply for the jet time as you can be hired directly for the CRJ. This is in contrast to Jazz where you bid and may not get the jet. This would also be after their Sky Regional application hasn't gone anywhere for various reasons.

Some people simply want 500 or 1000hrs of jet time on their resume before applying overseas and elsewhere. ALPA will make their short stay more pleasant. If the company can't afford unionised pilots and flight attendants? Well, they don't care because they're job searching after 6 months anyway.

Pretty dated opinions above.

That may be, but the only 2 people I know at Georgian are doing exactly that. One wants the jet time to go overseas, the other wants jet time so he can get to the likes of Sunwing/Transat ASAP.

It takes a village indeed and there are all types of people working at GGN for all sorts of reasons BUT the vast majority now being hired have AC in their sights as their career goal. During growth I know we hired lots of people from various backgrounds and stages of their career. The PMA has been refined now a couple of times so it is much more clear to the Express guys who they should be hiring to drive the ratios up and limit attrition to outside of the brand. RE the new employee representation, well, GGN has been unionized for 20 years.

[mbav8r]

RE the new employee representation, well, GGN has been unionized for 20 years.

So, what you're saying then, even with ALPA, if the majority of Pilots vote down a bad contract, the president of the union will still sign a back room deal allowing for it to go ahead ie; the RJ wages!

[PROC_HDG]

Incredible reading all of this. People actually think sky is better then ggn! Remember that's Scab regional and was created to bust the union. Ggn has been around longer (as one company) then Jazz and even though the union was not that amazing it at least had one. The CBA ggn had with OREA was better then the one wsg has with ALPA. Also Jazz is not the place it once was yes they still have a better CBA then most but that does not excuse the new 2 class system for the pilots. Everyone still has that jazz fantasy, sorry folks with all the kids there now vs the former 4-6000h FOs that has to wait 4-8 years to upgrade that will just keep going down. You folks go there and make 35k and you line up the door for it. You stab everyone of us in the back by dragging what was once a career company further down. Scab has no Union it's hard to commute to some cites. No Porter jumpseat and a lot of animosity from the other express and mainline pilot groups. 9h45 min rest away from base at least Ggn has 11, Ggn is now alpa so it's only going to be an upward trend. Oh and if you have the time you will A) be a1900 Capt making double what a jazz FO makes or you will be a jet FO that upgrades in 6-12 months

There is no shangri la out there folks it's called work not fun for a reason. There are a lot worse places to work then GGN SKY JAZZ Porter or Dubjay E. You could be at Wasaya, bearskin, Carson or EVAS and the likes.

Without getting into the nitty gritty, the pay at Sky alone puts it head and shoulders above GGN (in the depressing context of regional pay). Sky is a young company and it is not the fault of its' pilots that it was created to lower the bar. There is a growing effort to sign on with ALPA at Sky, though it has slowed in recent months due to the sheer number of new hires and the rate of attrition to AC.

When you use the term "scab" in this context, you tarnish the severity and weight of this word. If one of our colleagues down south who had been through the strikes of the 1980s heard you say that in this context, they would be disgusted.

PROC_HDG

[gtanorth]

Incredible reading all of this. People actually think sky is better then ggn! Remember that's Scab regional and was created to bust the union. Ggn has been around longer (as one company) then Jazz and even though the union was not that amazing it at least had one. The CBA ggn had with OREA was better then the one wsg has with ALPA. Also Jazz is not the place it once was yes they still have a better CBA then most but that does not excuse the new 2 class system for the pilots. Everyone still has that jazz fantasy, sorry folks with all the kids there now vs the former 4-6000h FOs that has to wait 4-8 years to upgrade that will just keep going down. You folks go there and make 35k and you line up the door for it. You stab everyone of us in the back by dragging what was once a career company further down. Scab has no Union it's hard to commute to some cites. No Porter jumpseat and a lot of animosity from the other express and mainline pilot groups. 9h45 min rest away from base at least Ggn has 11, Ggn is now alpa so it's only going to be an upward trend. Oh and if you have the time you will A) be a1900 Capt making double what a jazz FO makes or you will be a jet FO that upgrades in 6-12 months

There is no shangri la out there folks it's called work not fun for a reason. There are a lot worse places to work then GGN SKY JAZZ Porter or Dubjay E. You could be at Wasaya, bearskin, Carson or EVAS and the likes.

Without getting into the nitty gritty, the pay at Sky alone puts it head and shoulders above GGN (in the depressing context of regional pay). Sky is a young company and it is not the fault of its' pilots that it was created to lower the bar. There is a growing effort to sign on with ALPA at Sky, though it has slowed in recent months due to the sheer number of new hires and the rate of attrition to AC.

When you use the term "scab" in this context, you tarnish the severity and weight of this word. If one of our colleagues down south who had been through the strikes of the 1980s heard you say that in this context, they would be disgusted.

PROC_HDG

As with anything both Sky and GGN have pros and cons. Your career will certainly be moving very fast if you get on with GGN at a young age with limited experience as an FO or 1900 Capt. Pay at any regional needs to be viewed with position advancement opportunity - this has always been GGN's selling point. In any case I am sure Sky is a great place to work as well. I view any discussion about scabs, lowering the bar etc. to be a waste of time - Rouge, regional diversification at AC, low Encore wacons etc. have all led to lowering the bar in one way but the market also provides far more opportunities now and at a far far earlier point in a career than in the past 2 decades. Look at it as:

1) What was the pay, position, career advancement and wacon for a 250 hr pilot 20 years ago, 10 and now
2) What was the pay for a 1500 hr pilot ...
3) Somewhere around 3000 - 5000 hrs today you are most likely right - the bar is lowered but the need to fill seats targets 250 - 2500 hr people and that is what sets the bar.

[Black_Tusk]

Incredible reading all of this. People actually think sky is better then ggn! Remember that's Scab regional and was created to bust the union. Ggn has been around longer (as one company) then Jazz and even though the union was not that amazing it at least had one. The CBA ggn had with OREA was better then the one wsg has with ALPA. Also Jazz is not the place it once was yes they still have a better CBA then most but that does not excuse the new 2 class system for the pilots. Everyone still has that jazz fantasy, sorry folks with all the kids there now vs the former 4-6000h FOs that has to wait 4-8 years to upgrade that will just keep going down. You folks go there and make 35k and you line up the door for it. You stab everyone of us in the back by dragging what was once a career company further down. Scab has no Union it's hard to commute to some cites. No Porter jumpseat and a lot of animosity from the other express and mainline pilot groups. 9h45 min rest away from base at least Ggn has 11, Ggn is now alpa so it's only going to be an upward trend. Oh and if you have the time you will A) be a1900 Capt making double what a jazz FO makes or you will be a jet FO that upgrades in 6-12 months

There is no shangri la out there folks it's called work not fun for a reason. There are a lot worse places to work then GGN SKY JAZZ Porter or Dubjay E. You could be at Wasaya, bearskin, Carson or EVAS and the likes.

Without getting into the nitty gritty, the pay at Sky alone puts it head and shoulders above GGN (in the depressing context of regional pay). Sky is a young company and it is not the fault of its' pilots that it was created to lower the bar. There is a growing effort to sign on with ALPA at Sky, though it has slowed in recent months due to the sheer number of new hires and the rate of attrition to AC.

When you use the term "scab" in this context, you tarnish the severity and weight of this word. If one of our colleagues down south who had been through the strikes of the 1980s heard you say that in this context, they would be disgusted.

PROC_HDG

Don't they only get like $2.00/hr for per diems?

[PROC_HDG]

Don't they only get like $2.00/hr for per diems?

I believe it is up to $3.05/hr for the entire time away from base now.

PROC_HDG

[Roger1989]

Nicky Nick you must be captain at georgian by now? I bet they will return your call now if your not already there bud.

[Inverted2]

He's likely a skipper at AC by now.
I heard he has 2001 hours and a degree in liberal arts.

[fruitloops]

I posted this last year and some of it might be outdated now - if anything it will give everyone considering all of the regional options a general overview. Some of the upgrade times are shorter now than what's posted - i don't have Q or BE payscales for sky/ggn

[gtanorth]

I posted this last year and some of it might be outdated now - if anything it will give everyone considering all of the regional options a general overview. Some of the upgrade times are shorter now than what's posted - i don't have Q or BE payscales for sky/ggn

Important to know that GGN is TAFB for per diem hence the lower multiplier. I would put GGN benefits up against Sky any day. They actually have a good plan including loss of Lic.