SNOWBIRDS CRASH IN YQT!!

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:02 am

Has anyone seen the snowbird special from 2003 1800seconds or something like that.

They talk about 2 other really close calls that Capt Andy has had. (none of which he crashed).

Maybe someone/thing is trying to tell him something. Maybe he should finish the season and retire from the team.

Nothing against him, but it seems the odds have not been in his favour.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:19 am

istp wrote:We could sell 'em all over the place. As far as I know, no one makes a Hyundai type plane for poor militaries (like ours). That would be a market niche I think we could fill.

Unfortunately istp, this niche is crowded. Many countries have built their personal jet trainer and tried to market it but in vain. I'm thinking of the Italians, French, British, Germans, Russians (and friends), China.

It always ends up being an over-budget type program, costly to maintain and keep running. I think Europe will spit a few out in the coming 20-30 years. The EU will allow greater sales flexibiliy as well as a increased stature in front of potential customers.

Maybe we can buy some old F-16s or something?

No but seriously, how's this new Hawk trainer working out for our CAF?

Yoyoma

JBI · Post by **JBI** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:14 am

CD · Post by CD » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:27 am

JBI wrote:I suppose they kept him on an extra year after the fatal crash last year. I imagine this was going to be his last year anyways.

Conservative Party defence critic Gordon O'Connor said last night the government needs to re-examine the safety of the Snowbird fleet in the wake of the crash.

"Their technical experts say the fleet can keep going for another 10 or 15 years but, if that is proven untrue, than the government has to ground the fleet and make a costly decision about whether to replace them."

Capt. Mackay was only recently inserted back into the Snowbird's lineup.

With more than three years of Snowbird flight experience, Capt. Mackay had been assigned to be the team's standards and training officer in 2004 -- a position which includes the task of training new recruits. But Capt. Selby's death put him back in the air.

Ottawa Citizen: Snowbird jets safe, military boasted in '03

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:06 pm

Yoyoma wrote:
istp wrote:We could sell 'em all over the place. As far as I know, no one makes a Hyundai type plane for poor militaries (like ours). That would be a market niche I think we could fill.
Unfortunately istp, this niche is crowded. Many countries have built their personal jet trainer and tried to market it but in vain. I'm thinking of the Italians, French, British, Germans, Russians (and friends), China.

It always ends up being an over-budget type program, costly to maintain and keep running. I think Europe will spit a few out in the coming 20-30 years. The EU will allow greater sales flexibiliy as well as a increased stature in front of potential customers.

Yoyoma

I did not know that.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:49 pm

istp wrote:I did not know that.

Well, lets keep going then! Did you know that Surinam Toad has some strange breading habits? They mate in the water, and as the eggs are released the male fertalizes them and presses them to the back of the female. In the following hours, the skin grows around the eggs to enclose them in a cyst with a horny lid.

After about 80 days, the eggs develop, and the young emerge out of the back of this toad as a bunch of tiny froglets!

Another cool fact for you istp, the Golliath frog:

The biggest kind of frog is the Goliath frog. They come from Cameroon in West Africa. Their bodies can reach the size of nearly a foot (30 cm) long with their legs at least the same size. The Conraua Goliath weighs as much as a large housecat, about 3.3 kilos!

Hope you enjoyed TV time with Yoyoma.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:18 am

More exciting than the Discovery Channel! Thanks YO!

-istp

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:13 am

I know it's a little off topic, but who says that the replacements need to be turbofan powered...what about the PC-21? If you're looking to keep costs down, they're specifically designed to be less expensive than a jet.

The other option would be purchasing some more Hawks.

You'll notice that I'm not adressing the question of "should there be replacements". Despite the incredible resourcefullness shown by the Snowbirds and their support team, it's absolutely disgraceful that they're in the position of flying an aircraft that's been retired from use in every other role because of it's age (and obsolescence)

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:40 am

Well, the news this morning has restated that the Force's have no plans to replace the Snowbird aircraft until 2020. 2020!?!?!?!?!?! What the hell is that!!?!?!?!?

As much as many people would prefer jets, I think having Harvard 2's rather than no team at all would be better.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:41 am

If the brain trust in Ottawa is seriously thinking about ditching the Snowbirds to save money (so they have more to spend on gun registry, british submarines, quebec sponsorship embezzlement, etc) ...

I would seriously hope they look at out-sourcing to the private sector. This is not as crazy as it sounds.

Give Andre Lortie (ex-Northern Lights) the contract. I'll be he knows where he can find some L-39's

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:46 am

Ahhh hell, I said here before that I thought the Snowbirds should be flyin' F18's and you guys shot that idea down.... Now I think they hould have Pitts's!... Imagine the skills those guys could build with a team of 8 to 10 of those darlin' little bi-wing-ed things!

I'm sure Hedley could lend a hand with training.... and imagine the joys of seeing that sort of Snowbird-esque flying from a whole gaggle of Pitts!

rejd · Post by **rejd** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:54 am

Just saw this.

TORONTO (CP) - The Canadian Forces Snowbirds will not perform in a pair of upcoming air shows in Ontario in the wake of Wednesday's crash of one of the team's jets near Thunder Bay, Ont.

Maj. Ian McLean, the Snowbird team leader, told a Toronto television station today that scheduled performances in St. Catharines on Aug,. 27 and 28 and in Brantford on Aug. 31 are both cancelled.

"We've taken the steps to cancel our participation in the St. Catharines Air Show on the weekend and as well, the Brantford Air Show next Wednesday, so we will not be performing in those air shows," Mclean said in a televion interview.

"However, it's my understanding that both those air shows will still go," he added.

McLean said no decision has yet been made as to whether the Snowbirds would perform at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto during the Labour Day weekend Sept. 3, 4 and 5.

He said investigators probing Wednesday's crash need time to complete their work before a decision is made.

"Once we've given them (investigators) some time to try to make a determination, we'll be in a better position to judge whether or not we will perform at the Toronto International Air Show."

Military investigators arrived yesterday at the crash site.

Capt. Andy Mackay of Orleans, Ont., an Ottawa suburb, bailed out as his plane suddenly plummeted to the ground.

McLean said Mackay's engine failed while inverted during the run-up to a show.

The pilot went through his checklist, then ejected. He was treated in hospital for undisclosed injuries and released, and is fine, McLean said.

It was the second crash of a Snowbird jet this year.

The team lost Capt. Miles Selby to a collision during a practice flight in December.

Six Snowbirds pilots have died since 1972, one of them in a car crash. Four, like Mackay, were solo pilots of No. 8 planes in the formation.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:29 am

The article also had this picture.

CREDIT: Canadian Press
Firefighters hose down wreckage of a Snowbird jet that crashed Wednesday.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:40 pm

They must be starting to run out of airframes by now.

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:01 pm

I doubt it, last I heard they've got a ton of them in storage at Mountainview near Trenton along with a whole bunch of T-birds

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:18 pm

At the beginning of this year they had 22 airframes that were flyable IIRC. Some of those were with the aerospace engineering test establishment, and there were 9 with the snowbirds. So we're down three this year by my count, so there's still a bunch left, and I don't know if they have any in storage that they can pull out and get airworthy with some work.

AFAIC, we really need to transition to the hawk. Its what the Red Arrows fly (RAF team), and even if it looks kind of ugly its a good aircraft. Hopefully, when the political airbags say they need to look at the snowbirds, they'll realize a new aircraft would be an enormous PR boost and media bonanza and they'll consider shelling out for them. I find it hard to believe they'd disband them, I think the snowbirds mean way too much to canadians.

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:58 pm

I find it hard to believe they'd disband them, I think the snowbirds mean way too much to canadians.

Wait a minute! Aren't we the country that sent troops into desert theatre's wearing green camo? Nothing would surprise me...dismay maybe...but not surprise.

monkeyspankmasterflex · Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:18 pm

With all due respect to Snowbirds past and present, I think the arguement for keeping them is a weak one. Don't get me wrong, I recognize them as consumate professionals and world-class, however, I don't think an aerial demo team is a smart expenditure in an overburdened and underfunded military. Just my two cents, but in any event good to hear that Capt Mackay is AOK.

CAPGEN · Post by **CAPGEN** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:02 pm

I don't think an aerial demo team is a smart expenditure in an overburdened and underfunded military.

Your point is fair enough, but the Snowbirds aren't the reason the military is overburdened and underfunded either. The Snowbirds are a Canadian institution that people are, and should be, proud of. Their value far exceeds their cost. I think there are some "little" things that are worth the money.

Then again, I'm from Winnipeg, and most of this city is populated by cheapos that won't get behind anything positive, they'll only complain about anything, even if they voted for it, and I get so tired of hearing that attitude. Like Winnipeg stance on anything from a new bridge to a downtown hockey arena, the government's position on the military is that they want to use them, but they don't want to pay for them.

ZLIN 142C · Post by **ZLIN 142C** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:33 pm

Localizer wrote:Snowbird #8 - Capt. Andy McKay

Snowbird #8, eh? That's interesting. That number's had a rash of bad luck lately. First, there was the engine fire in flight and subsequent shutdown and deadstick landing at the Lethbridge airshow last year. (It was a very nice landing, I might add.) Once they changed the engine and aft fuselage they flew it out of there, but that aircraft was subsequently destroyed in that fatal accident at Moose Jaw a few months later. Now the "new" Snowbird 8 gets destroyed again. Forget unlucky number 13. . .

ZLIN 142C · Post by **ZLIN 142C** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:39 pm

Oh, and on the subject of a Tutor replacement:

http://www.phoenixfanjet.net

This is going back a few years, and Alberta Aviation is long dead, but this aircraft might have made a good replacement. Certainly it's a very similar aircraft to the Tutor.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:57 pm

There was a question earlier about the availibility of Tutor airframes.

I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that there are more than enough to supply the Snowbirds till well after 2020. If you're inclined swing by Mountainview next time you're in the area. Might be a good idea to call first as Canadian Forces bases aren't as open as they used to be.

The base is now used to store Tutors, Silverstars, F-5s and if I remember correctly a single Buffalo airframe minus powerplants. The base is also home to the cadet summer gliding school. When I was there the Tutor was in the process of being phased out. The techs that were placing them into storage told us they were for sale and a couple of African countries were looking into equiping them for light attack. (A duty that the Air Force decided they unfit for when they were first taken on)

Since that time there has apperently been a change in policy. The Tutors are no longer being marketed to militaries alone. You too can now own a tutor if the price is right. Saw a private Tutor in training livery at the Comox airshow this month. Ironically it was flown by a former Snowbird.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:05 pm

Usually, it ain't the aluminum (airframes) which is the limiting factor. I was talking to a USAF IP a couple years back, and he said that they couldn't get canopies for their T-37 (tweety bird) any more, so the number of serviceable T-37's was limited to the number of canopies the USAF had in stock. Every time they lost a canopy, they couldn't fly another T-37.

That's generally the way it is - some essential component is long out of production, and god knows there are plenty of them.