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 Post subject: NBAA Compensation Survey
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:56 am 
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Wondering if anyone in here has access to the survey, and would be willing to share?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:16 am 
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I have the details of the 2016 survey if you can give me the MTOW of the A/C you're thinking of. Although be warned, if you're based out of YYZ, the companies/sweatshops there seem to talk to each other and the pay is generally much lower than NBAA averages. The notion that they are doing owners a favour by low salaries whilst at the same time expecting crews to be within call out distance of one of the most expensive areas to live in Canada, then wonder why pilot turnover is high :roll:
The only exception I've heard of is Execaire who generally pay better, but this is just from word of mouth from the numbers friends are telling me who work there.
Also NBAA numbers are heavily weighted to US operators so not perfect. I also have the 2016 Pro Pilot survey if you give me the aircraft type (these tend to be slightly lower than NBAA).

Sorry, did I go on a bit of a rant there? :smt040



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:47 am 
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As a guide though from NBAA 2016 numbers

If you're at the bottom end of the weight scale expect closer to the 25% range, and if at the top end.....you get the drift.

MTOW between 10,000 and 20,000lbs

Captain total compensation
Average $89,918
25% quartile $77,760
75% quartile $98,000

FO
Average $58,140
25% $45000
75% $65000

MTOW between 20k and 45k

Captain
Average $117,389
25% $100,500
75% $130,000

FO
Average $77,657
25% $62,563
75% $90,640

MTOW between 45k and 80k

Captain
Average $136,891
25% $118,862
75% $158,000

FO
No numbers where given in the 2016 survey but these are the 2015 numbers so add about another 3-5% to these numbers

Average $88,137
25% $72,000
75% $90,000


Hope this helps as a guide. There are other details that can sway the numbers but these give a good overview.



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:53 am 
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That seems a lot lower than I would have anticipated. I'll have to dig up the salary survey from Professional Pilot, but I thought theirs seemed to give higher salaries.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:23 pm 
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CL-Skadoo! wrote:
That seems a lot lower than I would have anticipated. I'll have to dig up the salary survey from Professional Pilot, but I thought theirs seemed to give higher salaries.


They do seem low, but unfortunately line up pretty well with the pay scales I've heard of some of the larger management companies. I think pro pilot figures are usually higher, but if I'm not mistaken use median vs average figures which may be skewed by the lucky few pulling >300k



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Any 2016 data for >80,000 ie globals, acj, bbj, 650 etc?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:41 pm 
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MTOW 80k to 120k

Captain
Average $173,340
25% $145,000
75% $198,000

FO
Average $118,099
25% $110,000
75% $130,984

So a global 5000 at roughly 92,500 MTOW so expect just below average.

And yes these are average numbers across North America so there are modifiers to adjust up and down as required but I don't have that info with me, however they can sway the numbers considerably.


Hope this helps.

We need to start putting upward pressure on pay, there is a lack of qualified pilots willing to do this type of flying. Very few low timers want to go this route now as there is little to no chance of moving to an airline later in your career without a massive pay drop, they are also getting groomed now from 1000 hours up and by 1500 to 2000 they are being sucked up by the regionals. At the top end, we could normally rely on a few ex AC/WJ etc guys to come over for a few more years to pay off the ex. Now that you can fly til you die on a great schedule and pay, why would you bother making the move. We do still see a few that come back from the sandbox as they've had enough, but for quite a few that do,, it's too much of a change. They are not used to the menial tasks and talking to people! And of course the pay is about 1/3 to 1/4 of what hey were on!. Management companies have had their way for many years, and I hope there will come a time when that qualified resume pile will be thin to non existent. Don't work for peanuts, you don't have the schedule or the career security (if there is such a thing anymore) of the airline bods, and some are away from home for weeks at a time. You should at least get paid suitably for dealing with these uncertainties and sacrifices to home life.

Sorry I'm ranting again!



Last edited by whatsitdoingnow on Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Pro Pilot 2016 has a global captain at an average of $150k with a low of $113,00 (which f@&king tool accepted that!!) and a high of $193,000


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:40 pm 
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at 113,000 that's either a fractional/charter, or someone gets some nice perks to supplement that pay. Profit share, stock options, company car, or chocolate.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:51 am 
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whatsitdoingnow wrote:

The only exception I've heard of is Execaire who generally pay better, but this is just from word of mouth from the numbers friends are telling me who work there.


I would like to point out that the salary you make at Execaire is really dependant on the aircraft's owner.

Execaire used to have a "pay scale" for light, medium and heavy jets which were back in those days (20 to 25 years ago) excellent salaries, probably the best in Canada. Also back then crewing an aircraft was much better. It was usually a minimum of 3 pilots per aircraft and not unusual to have 4 pilots per aircraft, none of this BS of today where some aircrafts have only 2 pilots.

However that all changed and now to get a management contract for any aircraft, Execaire does exactly what the other management companies do... low ball it.

Because of this, some pilots at Execaire will make below average salaries and some will be above.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:03 am 
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Jet Jockey wrote:
whatsitdoingnow wrote:

The only exception I've heard of is Execaire who generally pay better, but this is just from word of mouth from the numbers friends are telling me who work there.


I would like to point out that the salary you make at Execaire is really dependant on the aircraft's owner.

Execaire used to have a "pay scale" for light, medium and heavy jets which were back in those days (20 to 25 years ago) excellent salaries, probably the best in Canada. Also back then crewing an aircraft was much better. It was usually a minimum of 3 pilots per aircraft and not unusual to have 4 pilots per aircraft, none of this BS of today where some aircrafts have only 2 pilots.

However that all changed and now to get a management contract for any aircraft, Execaire does exactly what the other management companies do... low ball it.

Because of this, some pilots at Execaire will make below average salaries and some will be above.


Precisely correct. Execaire however is only one player. The management companies have little room to compete except on salaries. There is no longer a "take it or leave it" mentality when it comes to managed customers. Everyone competes for the bottom dollar and it is shameful. Salaries are dependent on owners but chances are, they have been tempered by the race to the bottom approach of management companies. You don't have to look too far to see where the corporate salaries are headed guys. Don't blame the pilots as there are fewer and fewer highly paid jobs. Blame the management companies and educate your employers. Failing that, you had better find a way to unionize the industry. Good luck with that.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:15 am 
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whatsitdoingnow wrote:
Pro Pilot 2016 has a global captain at an average of $150k with a low of $113,00 (which f@&king tool accepted that!!) and a high of $193,000


There are lower paid Global Captains right here in Canada. Two aircraft with one management company are only contractors with no security, no benefits and no implied continued employment.

A two aircraft owner employs two pilots, the remaining support coming from contractors.

Prior to the influx of management companies, this was never the case.

It was once the US that led the race to the bottom. That now belongs to us right here in Canada. Unfortunately, aviation isn't the only industry where this is commonplace anymore. Many employers in Canada have gone to 38 hour work weeks with no benefits or severance packages.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Then the management companies need to start educating aircraft owners that if they want a stable workforce they need to pay at least average wages. If they are going to cooperate with each other in regard to wages, at least push them in the right direction. I'm also not totally convinced that the relatively small difference in wages is a deciding factor in owner loyalty. When you consider the running costs including maintenance, insurance, hangar and handling fees that run into many 100's of thousands per year, plus the managements cut, how does a salary difference of 10-20k sway them?

As far as unions go, I heard from an ALPA guy, that they are considering reaching out to smaller management companies in the future. Of course good luck getting everyone onboard!

Anyway the numbers above are correct from what I have, and as soon as I get 2017 numbers later in the year, I'll post them. I expect some good upward movement from 2016.

Now we just need to get Transport Canada to acknowledge that rolling rest periods are not acceptable as reaffirmed by the FAA :D



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:53 pm 
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whatsitdoingnow wrote:
I have the details of the 2016 survey if you can give me the MTOW of the A/C you're thinking of. Although be warned, if you're based out of YYZ, the companies/sweatshops there seem to talk to each other and the pay is generally much lower than NBAA averages. The notion that they are doing owners a favour by low salaries whilst at the same time expecting crews to be within call out distance of one of the most expensive areas to live in Canada, then wonder why pilot turnover is high :roll:
The only exception I've heard of is Execaire who generally pay better, but this is just from word of mouth from the numbers friends are telling me who work there.
Also NBAA numbers are heavily weighted to US operators so not perfect. I also have the 2016 Pro Pilot survey if you give me the aircraft type (these tend to be slightly lower than NBAA).

Sorry, did I go on a bit of a rant there? :smt040


Any chance you'd be willing to share the PDF of the 2016 survey? First time poster, long time lurker.

Please and thank you!



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:14 am 
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Quote:
Profit share, stock options, company car, or chocolate.



:lol:



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Here is a link to the Pro Pilot Survey for 2016.

It's around page 84 in the magazine.
http://online.propilotmag.com/June2016#&pageSet=43

I was on the Airline Pilot Central Forum and they seem to be under the impression that these figures are being manipulated by their department managers/DFO's etc as several of the members said that their salaries were not on the survey even though their company took part in the survey. This doesn't surprise me at all.

I would love to know what the owner pays the company and what the difference is to my pay!



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:02 pm 
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I heard I might be getting a pay raise!



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:48 pm 
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In pro pilot mag, canadian salaries would be included on the international page which is not broken down by aircraft type so it would be tough to know if your salary was included. They also don't include survey results if there are irregularities on the survey form, ie no signature, wrong contact info etc.

As for the management companies skimming off your pay...you can probably count on at least 20%



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Got a chuckle from your name, Whatsitdoingnow! We used to say we took our clients from "What's it doing now?" to "Look, it's doing it again!"

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Awesome, thanks.

Aren't management companies our friends?!



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Look at that. Came back a day after I had posted and no responses, now look!

Thanks, all. :D


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Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:24 am 
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DC3T Driver wrote:
Awesome, thanks.

Aren't management companies our friends?!


Depends on the friends you keep. Management companies stand behind you. So far behind you, you can't even see them.



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