Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

[Surfer Dude]

There's not. There are trees 300 feet off the end it says. Does 704 with less than 9 even need ASDA though?

[Black_Tusk]

Don't think so. Otherwise how would it be able to operate out of 3000 foot gravel strips?

[goingnowherefast]

Don't think so. Otherwise how would it be able to operate out of 3000 foot gravel strips?

...because they fly cargo into the reserves, take-offs are done with an empty aircraft.

Does 704 with less than 9 passengers seats need to meet ASDA? Short answer is no, if authorised on the AOC. CAR 704.46 is pretty clear. However, Pickle Lake's runway is a bit longer than 4900' I bet they had lots of room, especially when it's freezing outside.

From Basler Turbo's website:

[Black_Tusk]

I guess that makes sense. I wonder if there are any runs though where they make multiple stops in one trip? Or are they always empty when leaving?

[Cat Driver]

It would appear they had enough runway to get airborne and clear any obstacles past the end of the runway the question is why did it not stay airborne?

[Surfer Dude]

Perhaps they traded airspeed for altitude to clear those trees:

-taxi out to 27 because it's closer and you save 1 minute
-start takeoff roll uphill and with a (small) tailwind
-lose engine
-have no idea if you are going to be able to stop because TC waivered your balanced field calculations
-remember your training pilot said it's a "homesick angel on one"
-give her the beans
-trees are getting bigger
-yank it over top of them
-stall and descend onto the ice below

[CLguy]

Well Surfer obviously you have never been to Pickle cause you keep talking about trees off the end of 27. The only thing off the end is a big drop off down to the lake. You could run off the end of the runway with a 3 and just keep going until the ground disappears below you. No obstacles to clear! None!

[Just another canuck]

…

[ipilot54]

Well, is there anyone on this site old enough to know how Frank operates??? Not over gross? You have to be kidding me! Cat, you alluded to it but were trying to be polite I assume.

Don't know what happened however, to suggest that the aircraft was not over gross is, well, you haven't been around much. Glad everyone is ok and perhaps TC can exercise some wisdom this time.....

[Cat Driver]

I will not make any comment that would accuse this crew and company of flying over the gross allowable of the airplane because I have no idea what their take off weight was.

However I can say that my faith in TC exercising wisdom is not all that strong.

It will be interesting to see if any factual information comes out before it becomes a thing of the distant past and overshadowed by something else.

Ya gotta love Canadian aviation.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Still trying to figure why a departure at 5/8 vis??? If you think vis is a non issue, get some dual.
Illya

[Eleveniron]

Well, is there anyone on this site old enough to know how Frank operates??? Not over gross? You have to be kidding me! Cat, you alluded to it but were trying to be polite I assume.

Don't know what happened however, to suggest that the aircraft was not over gross is, well, you haven't been around much. Glad everyone is ok and perhaps TC can exercise some wisdom this time.....

Pretty bold allegations ipilot. And you know the aircraft was over gross how? Is this factual or simply an attempt to stir up s**t?

[goingnowherefast]

Still trying to figure why a departure at 5/8 vis??? If you think vis is a non issue, get some dual.
Illya

It's above the legally required 1/2sm required for an IFR departure. Take-off alternate was even discussed briefly earlier on in the thread.

[Surfer Dude]

Well Surfer obviously you have never been to Pickle cause you keep talking about trees off the end of 27. The only thing off the end is a big drop off down to the lake. You could run off the end of the runway with a 3 and just keep going until the ground disappears below you. No obstacles to clear! None!

There are trees off the end of 27 as indicated in the airport diagram and in photographs. The terrain does slope down towards the lake but it is not a clear path like you describe.

[piperdriver]

Perhaps they traded airspeed for altitude to clear those trees:

-taxi out to 27 because it's closer and you save 1 minute
-start takeoff roll uphill and with a (small) tailwind
-lose engine
-have no idea if you are going to be able to stop because TC waivered your balanced field calculations
-remember your training pilot said it's a "homesick angel on one"
-give her the beans
-trees are getting bigger
-yank it over top of them
-stall and descend onto the ice below

Looking at the damage (or lack thereof) to the aircraft in the photo I would have a hard time believing it was stalled onto the ice.

[piperdriver]

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017O0596

[Surfer Dude]

Weather reported in Big Trout Lake (CYTL) when they took off:

METAR CYTL 171700Z AUTO 02006KT 320V060 3/4SM -SN BKN006
BKN011 OVC024 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SLP119=
SPECI CYTL 171619Z AUTO 00000KT 5/8SM -SN BKN006 OVC016 M02/M03
A2983 RMK SLP117=
METAR CYTL 171600Z AUTO VRB02KT 5/8SM -SN OVC016 M02/M03
A2982 RMK SLP114=
METAR CYTL 171500Z AUTO VRB02KT 1/2SM SN OVC013 M03/M04 A2981
RMK SLP110=

[Black_Tusk]

Why is it that whenever stuff like this happens, the weather gets released and something never seems to line up. I'm really curious if they were ifr or vfr... 3/4sm is not 1sm. So 300/1 isn't exactly doable. Everyone remember last time someone from pickle lake operated 300/1 to YTL and didn't make it back?

Many times I've seen them operating out of YRL, vfr... when everyone else was grounded due to fog and vis. I couldn't take off one day because I needed a take off alternate which wasn't available due to the low vis but sure enough there goes the Basler. Up to Pik/Pop/Deer/Sandy where the minimums are way above the current ceiling. I know it's advisory only but does FSS not say anything? I could clearly see them flying into cloud on departure at 200-300'. This shit needs to stop.

[Just another canuck]

…

[lownslow]

Weather reported in Big Trout Lake (CYTL) when they took off:

METAR CYTL 171700Z AUTO 02006KT 320V060 3/4SM -SN BKN006
BKN011 OVC024 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SLP119=
SPECI CYTL 171619Z AUTO 00000KT 5/8SM -SN BKN006 OVC016 M02/M03
A2983 RMK SLP117=
METAR CYTL 171600Z AUTO VRB02KT 5/8SM -SN OVC016 M02/M03
A2982 RMK SLP114=
METAR CYTL 171500Z AUTO VRB02KT 1/2SM SN OVC013 M03/M04 A2981
RMK SLP110=

The optimist in me sees an upward trend!