What would you do? Engine Failure over Toronto City @ 2500 ft

[rxl]

There is definitely something to be said about reducing the odds of the seriousness of an incident by careful planning of stuff such as this, but the bottom line is that you are not controlling your destiny, just improving the odds.

Obviously, you have decided on a likely safer course of action(although if it ends up in a fatal midair, it doesn't help much). But you have also limited yourself in what you are willing to do. While I have done a long re-route for a cross-coutry with an historic aircraft, I admit that I have flown over a lot of terrain that didn't offer very good odds for survival when I could have followed a roador stayed near an airport.

I have decided to fly up north, over mountains and over an ocean. It is really just a calculated risk.

If your only engine quits at 2,500' over the Barren Lands, the Rockies or the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, the risk to people and their things on the surface is pretty much zero ... over Yonge and St. Clair things are a little different. The folks standing on Yonge St. watching as you glide silently overhead with the prop stopped are expecting that you would have made at least some sort of a plan.

True, but to be honest, as selfish as it is, I am mostly concerned about damage to me. That being said, I believe there is a reg that says aside from takeoff and landing, there should be no risk to persons or property on the ground(or worded similarly).

And please don't try to tell me that you have never flown over the city with little to no safe landing options in the event of an engine failure.

You are correct I can't say that, especially since I have flown many single engine float charters out of Toronto Harbour to Muskoka/Parry Sound and beyond. We did however always fly the Lakeshore/Don Valley route to reduce the risk as much as possible.
Pretty hard to be in absolute compliance with the reg that you paraphrase when operating a single engine airplane in and out of YTZ or any other airport located in the middle of a highly populated area.

You did say this - "Obviously, you have decided on a likely safer course of action(although if it ends up in a fatal midair, it doesn't help much). But you have also limited yourself in what you are willing to do." - which made me wonder.
To reduce the risk to people and their property on the surface is a pretty good reason to limit yourself in what you are willing to do.

[PilotDAR]

Carb heat cannot assist of the fuel flow is interrupted by an obstruction in the carb, before the throat. Ice seems to be able to crystallize, and obstruct fuel flow. Ice prevention by adding alcohol is the only solution. This wise action was briefly prohibited by TC with Mogas approvals, but corrected when I reported my two incidents of this happening.

but the bottom line is that you are not controlling your destiny, just improving the odds.

I am controlling my destiny (to keep it from violently conflicting with someone else's), as long as I can control the plane. I have flown single engine over ocean stretches, mountain ranges, and a whole lot of North America which was not well suited to a forced approach. It is mostly luck, and some skill and judgement that my five forced landings have all found a surface which resulted in no damage to anything, nor conflict with anyone. But, as I get older, I don't want to have to work so hard to masterfully execute a forced approach in between things that can be a source of litigation, so I less fly over them, and more places where I could put it in, and only worry about myself, my pax, and the plane.

Note that London England is a single engine no go zone, and I agree with that. Even the Thames is not open enough to ditch without hitting someone.

For those for whom ditching is the back up plan, okay, that'll work... You're carrying life jackets and have taken the ditching course - right?

[photofly]

Hard to see how all that hot air flowing through and inevitably heating the entire carburettor (made of heat conducting aluminium alloy) would have hindered the melting of ice crystals anywhere inside the carburetor...surely?

For those for whom ditching is the back up plan, okay, that'll work... You're carrying life jackets and have taken the ditching course - right?

Yes

[Jungle Jim]

If it was at night I would turn off the landing light. Better off not knowing what was waiting for you in the decent.

Jim

[rxl]

DD did fly a Skymaster for a while registration C-GKEY. Anyone remember 590 CKEY?

[photofly]

Note that London England is a single engine no go zone, and I agree with that. Even the Thames is not open enough to ditch without hitting someone.

Different rules in the UK:

Rules of the Air, 5(d):
"An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city, town or settlement shall not fly below
such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the congested area in the event of
a power unit failure. "

The Thames is considered part of the congested area. In Canada we don't have to glide clear of the entire congested area, we simply have to:

CAR 602.12(3):
"... no person shall conduct a take-off, approach or landing in an aircraft over a built-up area or over an open-air assembly of persons unless that aircraft will be operated at an altitude from which, in the event of an engine failure or any other emergency necessitating an immediate landing, the aircraft can land without creating a hazard to persons or property." - my emphasis.

[anofly]

There was a citabria i think banner tow that landed on a football field, ran off the end. there was a grumman with a female pilot that landed and got stuck in a tree trying to land on a football field i think.
There are a few golf courses, but they are not downtown. You might fit in to traffic on the gardiner or DVP if its moving fast , but if its stopped there is no room for you there. There are a few railway tracks but i bet the wires cross them all over.
So ytz, water, yzd, and if you have to there might be some room in the don valley some curvy roads but with few wires,
This one is about saving your skin and not killing anyone on the ground, so if you hit the fence at the far end of the football field, and got it on short you might do ok. And better in a 150 or 172 than a bonanza A 36, cause its all about speed when you hit something.
Hopefully the engine does not go "bang stop" often they run rough and crazy rough but keep it going limping till you are safe, if you can, even a 10 or 15 percent power will stretch the glide.
fly safe,
traffic guys used to use twin comanche (shannon) and Dahmer used to use a 337. He did partake is swapping a bit of paint or it might have been tire tracks, with a 172, they were both very lucky...
keep your head on a swivel.

[DanJ]

and a lesson about adding alcohol to the gas in the winter.

And adding some alcohol to the pilot after that adventure, I'm sure lol

[CpnCrunch]

Carb heat cannot assist of the fuel flow is interrupted by an obstruction in the carb, before the throat. Ice seems to be able to crystallize, and obstruct fuel flow. Ice prevention by adding alcohol is the only solution.

So, did you have the carb heat on for at least 30 seconds after the roughness started, and did you actually see ice crystals in the main jet?

I can't find a schematic of that particular carb, so I'm not sure exactly where the main jet is, but I would have thought it would get sufficient heat to melt any ice.

Not trying to catch you out, just trying to understand the risk here. I know the POH says you can add isopropyl alcohol, but I've never heard of this actually happening in a Cessna.

[Chris M]

I fly out of YZD so get to spend a fair amount of time over Toronto. I hate going downtown and very seldom do it. If Pearson is landing on 23/24 I'll be capped at 1700' (1000' AGL at the 401), unless I head east into Buttonville, climb up, and follow the DVP. Straight south over YZD seems to be a popular option but if things go quite there are almost no options. Aim for the green spots and hit a tree - the other options are houses, cars, and people.

I pretty much always depart to the north until above the city and then head out from there. Lots more options available for the few minutes I'm over the built up area.

[photofly]

I fly out of YZD

What's your secret?

[PilotDAR]

Carb heat cannot assist of the fuel flow is interrupted by an obstruction in the carb, before the throat. Ice seems to be able to crystallize, and obstruct fuel flow. Ice prevention by adding alcohol is the only solution.

So, did you have the carb heat on for at least 30 seconds after the roughness started, and did you actually see ice crystals in the main jet?

I can't find a schematic of that particular carb, so I'm not sure exactly where the main jet is, but I would have thought it would get sufficient heat to melt any ice.

No, I was not able to see the ice crystals in the main jet, that would require carb disassembly in flight. I do know that the engine suddenly stopped in cruise flight, it's happened to me three times over the years, twice resulting in a forced landing. All three occasions in very cold winter conditions. Moisture which may have been suspended in the fuel as a liquid will become fine ice crystals at altitude or as the fuel otherwise cools in flight. The evidence was that the two occasions I landed, the engine was still running on the idle jet, and would not respond much to opening the throttle. Once I let the latent heat of the engine warm the entire carb (half an hour or so), the engine ran normally with no other action.

The fuel can cool at different points in the fuel system, liquid water in the tank, can become ice crystals elsewhere in the fuel system, as the fuel passes through a small fuel line in a cold area. The gascolator should stop this, but some evidence to the contrary. The engine can breath a very small amount of water, but ice can obstruct.

At the bottom of an MA-3 or MA-4 carb, where the idle cut off valve operates, the fuel goes up into the main jet, through a metering orifice (which may be changed depending upon engine application. When we converted an IO-520 to being carburetted, I reconfigured an MA-4 carb removed from an O-540 out of an Aztec, to have a greater fuel and airflow. This included drilling out the orifice in the main jet for greater fuel flow. Similarly the MA-3 carb I modified for the ethanol fueled O-200 powered C 150, whose fuel flow at takeoff was around 13 GPH of ethanol, so larger orifice than the gasoline version). The small orifice (relative to fuel line or jet size) could easily be obstructed by an accumulation of ice crystals suspended in the fuel.

The orifice is not in a part of the carb which is affected by the application of carb heat in any case - you cannot melt out a fuel blockage with carb heat, only venturi ice. And, when the engine stops, carb heat stops too! While flying on days which are well below freezing, I do not preventatively use carb heat, as venturi ice does not accumulate in very cold conditions, any already frozen moisture, which might make it past the filter, goes right through the engine harmlessly as ice.

In any case, I choose to not fly in areas where the forced approach I could have to make could result in me landing in a congested area - just my well informed personal choice. Canada is big, I don't need to be over Toronto.

[Cat Driver]

I had a double engine failure in a Navajo caused by ice crystals blocking the fuel line strainers while flying IFR in Manitoba.

First the left engine slowly lost power and finally quit, then shortly there after the right one quit.

Fortunately I found a hole in the clouds big enough to circle down and land at an airport below me.

[Chris M]

I fly out of YZD

What's your secret?

I work there