New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

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whatsitdoingnow
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#26 Post by whatsitdoingnow » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:56 am

Ahh the CBAA......the same people trying to get the new fatigue rules squashed or watered down considerably.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#27 Post by NovaBoy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:45 am

CBAA is a joke
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#28 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:12 pm

I'm starting to hear Hamilton tossed around a lot more at the midfield.

Don't think it's a great option for clients using Pearson but with this handcuffing of departures and arrivals, it probably will become more valuable than the four letters used in the ALTN box on the flight plan.

S.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#29 Post by Roar » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:28 am

whatsitdoingnow wrote:Ahh the CBAA......the same people trying to get the new fatigue rules squashed or watered down considerably.
As they should be. The new duty time regulations although good for 705 operations are completely out of line for 704 operations, especially those that switch between 604 and 704. The new regulations are a one size fits all solution designed for the 705 world. For example I fly 604/704 on average maybe 4-5 legs a month for around 20hours total, you're going to tell me that I have fatigue issues and can't fly a full duty day to Europe have my required rest then fly a full duty day the next back home, and have two weeks off before the next flight? There needs to be allowances for different types of operations.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#30 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:28 am

704 airline guys are some of the hardest worked pilots in the country. I feel like this is the wrong thread, but I really hope the new rules give allowances like you mention. 703 and 704 both cover such a vast variety of flying. The rules should be based on the type of flying performed, not the size of the aircraft you fly. Flying a 1900 in an airline is a lot different than flying a corporate charter King Air 350, yet they're both 704. Hopefully we'll see more ops specs like the 703 world has, just be handed out more carefully based on the nature of the specific operation.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#31 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:02 am

Back on topic. Just looking at this mornings notams. Now it is saying slots are to be requested a MAXIMUM of 48hrs in advance. What gives here? These guys need to get their heads on straight!
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#32 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:39 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Back on topic. Just looking at this mornings notams. Now it is saying slots are to be requested a MAXIMUM of 48hrs in advance. What gives here? These guys need to get their heads on straight!
Well, this is a bit of a clusterf$%#k. I wonder just how much notice will be adequate?

CYYZ WEF 2017 MAR 26 1030.
AMEND PUB: RESTRICTIONS: OPR RESTRICTIONS: 1 TO READ 1.A)
ADD: 1.B) ALL NON SKED ACFT ARE REQUIRED TO OBTAIN A SLOT FOR ALL
OPS MAX 48 HRS PRIOR TO ETD OR SKED TIME OF ARR.
CTC GTAA 416-776-SLOT (7568) OR 1-800-267-SLOT (7568).
EXEMPT: MEDEVAC, HEADS OF STATE, POLICE, MILITARY, HELI AND SPORTS
CHARTERS.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#33 Post by Pratt X 3 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:39 pm

The original memo was revised and updated:
http://apps.torontopearson.com/torontop ... ileid=2168

Highlights include:
-Normal Operating Hours (0630-0029L)
General/Business Aviation Operators are required to book arrival and departure slots up to 48 hours prior to Estimated Time of Departure (ETD) or Arrival (STA).

-The availability to book slots is on a 48-hr rolling window prior to your arrival or departure request (i.e. a slot can be booked at the time of call for an arrival or departure slot within the next 48hrs). Slots outside of the 48 hour window will not be allocated.

-Slots will be valid for a period of ±1hr from the Estimated Time of Departure (ETD) or Arrival (STA) (e.g. a reservation for 1430L is valid from 1330L to 1530L); however operations are not permitted within the ‘Restricted Operating Hours’ without explicit permission to do so.

-For dates outside of the defined period for ‘Runway 05/23 Runway Rehabilitation Activities’ (see below), six (6) slots will be allocated per hour (e.g. 0630-0659, 0700-0759, 0800-0859…2300-2359, 0000-0029) within the normal operating hours (0630-0029L). Note the shoulder hours of 0630-0659 and 0000-0029 will be allocated under same operating parameters as the whole hours (i.e. six (6)).

-Runway 05/23 Rehabilitation Activities
Rehabilitation activities are scheduled for Runway 05/23 from March 28, 2017 to approximately May 16, 2017; and, October 10, 2017 to approximately November 03, 2017. Slots will be allocated using the methodology described above, however arrival slots will not be assigned to GA/BA operators from 1500 to 1959 local time; departures will still be assigned.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#34 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:02 am

If you experience any problems with the yyz slot program, CBAA would like you to send a report here...
https://lconsulting.wufoo.com/forms/gta ... ns-at-yyz/
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#35 Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:54 am

thanks Johnny. I will be sending in a report. It's really screwed with our company plans at least 5 times already just off the top of my head.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#36 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:01 pm

I haven't flown since the slots came into effect. What kind of delays or issues did you have?
BTW I replied to your pm about six months ago lol
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#37 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:18 am

They're certainly not the jolliest bunch to deal with, either. Although, if I got some crusty M-Fer on the other line giving them the business, I may have reduced jolliness as well.

Anyway, I too am experiencing headaches.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#38 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:15 am

The issue I'm finding is running into the end of your duty day and getting stranded at some half way home airport because your company can't get a slot.

So many clients want to come back at the end of their business day between 3-8pm and we end up going to Hamilton and sitting for 4 hours.

So companies that want to fly will find a way. Unfortunately it doesn't always mean rainbows and sunshine for the pilots.

S.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#39 Post by cdnpilot77 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:18 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:The issue I'm finding is running into the end of your duty day and getting stranded at some half way home airport because your company can't get a slot..

Similar thing happened to one of our company aircraft tonight. Had to wait for departure to yyz, after flying a couple of long legs, due to a slot time availability, flow control delayed even further into yyz, duty day was tapped and they're stuck away from base for another night. Had they been able to depart when their slot was allocated, there would have been no issue getting home.

My question is, what is the point of being obligated to obtain a slot if you can't use it anyways?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#40 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:11 pm

I thought this was supposed to minimize or eliminate flow control? Oh my, that would be so incredibly frustrating. Something to keep an eye out for.

This seriously needs to be addressed, and IMO the based GA operators are absorbing an unfair burden on their already slim pickings for work.

S.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#41 Post by cdnpilot77 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:48 pm

Frustrating is an understatement...we had 2 airplanes departing south Florida delayed by flow last week and I just learned of a second one tonight being delayed by flow and will have less than 15min window to meet the closing of their slot time. I just don't get it.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#42 Post by Broker » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:19 am

The GTAA gets it's marching orders from it's largest tenant. Always has, always will. They even dictate runway usage in order to diminish delays. Air Canada would love to get all the pesky business jets out of their way. You know, the ones that carry the employers of all their passengers.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#43 Post by fish4life » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:53 am

How does it work in the US? Is it a bit different because they have "corporate airports" and "airline airports"?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#44 Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:18 am

fish4life wrote:How does it work in the US? Is it a bit different because they have "corporate airports" and "airline airports"?
I've never had any issue planning and going into any non-military airport in the USA. Unlike Canadians who see airports as a hassle and disruptive to their lives until they need their $299 all inclusive vacation, Americans, for the most part, view airports as a vital part of their local economy.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#45 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:30 am

Not to mention when you do divert to the Hammer, the overnight fee is 400+ dollars to sit on the ramp for the night.

Even with the 1000L minimum of fuel.

Hmmm.

S.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#46 Post by Pratt X 3 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:39 am

Keep the receipt and add it to the class-action lawsuit against the GTAA that will be surely filed in the near future. Maybe even add NavCanada into the respondents... :smt014
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#47 Post by fish4life » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:35 am

So to play devils advocate it makes sense to inconvenience the corporate jets with these restricted slots, it is democracy at its finest. The airlines have been getting tons of flow delays with this construction as well and they have slots published 6 months in advance. If you delay one 320/37 about 150+ people are effected, if you delay a corporate jet 5-10max are effected. It sure seems to make sense to restrict corporate jet traffic a lot more so the needs of the few don't outweigh the needs of the many.

This weeks weather has caused a bunch of delays/ cancellations in the airlines world why shouldn't corporate suffer the same fate?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#48 Post by skypirate88 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:58 pm

Tried to leave YQB this morning. We took a 30 minute flow delay at 6 am on a Saturday.

I can only imagine the trouble you corporate guys are going through.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#49 Post by securitas » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:06 am

ATC flow delays are a result of the airport capacity being reduced to roughly 30 arrivals per hour from 60+ due to the 05/23 closure. When demand exceeds capacity on a routine basis, obviously halving the acceptance rate will lead to delays.

The situation is no different than a restaurant with 30 tables, but 70 parties show up to eat. An ATC provided ground delay program is desirable because, rather than a huge lineup outside (airborne holds), the restaurant traffic controller tells people to not leave home until a certain time, so when they arrive they get a table right away. Since people don't leave home exactly to the second they were assigned, and their time enroute to the restaurant varies because of traffic, red lights, etc, a small lineup at the door is desirable because, the minute a table is free, the new group can be seated, and no table slots are wasted.

The ground delay program allocates delays equally among all users who are filed into the program. These delays on the ground save fuel, airtime, etc., and the pilots/dispatchers can plan proper fuel, consolidate flights, manage duty day issues, etc.

The GTAA has published it's own protocol because it owns the airport and operates it as it sees fit. They dictate preferential runways due to noise abatement during night operations, but in terms of runway assignment for minimizing delay, that is driven primarily by the airline customers. Don't like a 25 kt crosswind component and want rwy 33? Talk to your company who demands an east west configuration to minimize delays.
fish4life wrote:How does it work in the US? Is it a bit different because they have "corporate airports" and "airline airports"?
Bizav flying to the corporate airports encounter demand rarely approaches capacity and therefore less potential for delay.
Pratt X 3 wrote:The airlines have been getting tons of flow delays with this construction as well and they have slots published 6 months in advance.
ATC slots are published "day of" when the GDP is issued.
cdnpilot77 wrote:I've never had any issue planning and going into any non-military airport in the USA. Unlike Canadians who see airports as a hassle and disruptive to their lives until they need their $299 all inclusive vacation, Americans, for the most part, view airports as a vital part of their local economy.
Obviously you haven't flown to the major airports when they are constrained due to construction or weather. Convective weather & Snow causes a GDP into ORD at least weekly. The NY 3 have GDPs several times a week. SFO GDP happens basically daily, where ground delays of 2-4 hrs are routine. LAX had construction all last summer and was the same as YYZ today. Keep in mind these US airports have much higher capacity than demand on a routine basis, whereas YYZ demand is regularly at maximum capacity for 4-5 hrs a day during the week. Even Augusta GA runs a GDP during the masters. And also keep in mind this is just speaking of GDPs. The local flow control for every center issues routine traffic departure delays (apreq) independent or on top of the GDP. Never flown YYZ to the eastern seaboard major airports? Ever notice the rj's holding near the deice bay with engines off and apu running waiting for an apreq time?
cdnpilot77 wrote:Frustrating is an understatement...we had 2 airplanes departing south Florida delayed by flow last week and I just learned of a second one tonight being delayed by flow and will have less than 15min window to meet the closing of their slot time. I just don't get it.
GDP slot times must be adhered to by the tower controller at the departure airport within +- 5 min.
skypirate88 wrote:Tried to leave YQB this morning. We took a 30 minute flow delay at 6 am on a Saturday.

I can only imagine the trouble you corporate guys are going through.
Lots of people wanted to eat breakfast at the yyz restaurant on Saturday, and you couldn't get a table until half an hour later.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#50 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:58 pm

Your restaurant analogy is interesting...our clients are the type that tip the doorman so we don't have to wait for a table...
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