New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Discussion of topics related to corporate aviation throughout the world.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Frustrating is an understatement...we had 2 airplanes departing south Florida delayed by flow last week and I just learned of a second one tonight being delayed by flow and will have less than 15min window to meet the closing of their slot time. I just don't get it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Broker
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:52 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by Broker »

The GTAA gets it's marching orders from it's largest tenant. Always has, always will. They even dictate runway usage in order to diminish delays. Air Canada would love to get all the pesky business jets out of their way. You know, the ones that carry the employers of all their passengers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
fish4life
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by fish4life »

How does it work in the US? Is it a bit different because they have "corporate airports" and "airline airports"?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by cdnpilot77 »

fish4life wrote:How does it work in the US? Is it a bit different because they have "corporate airports" and "airline airports"?
I've never had any issue planning and going into any non-military airport in the USA. Unlike Canadians who see airports as a hassle and disruptive to their lives until they need their $299 all inclusive vacation, Americans, for the most part, view airports as a vital part of their local economy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Not to mention when you do divert to the Hammer, the overnight fee is 400+ dollars to sit on the ramp for the night.

Even with the 1000L minimum of fuel.

Hmmm.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Pratt X 3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:19 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Keep the receipt and add it to the class-action lawsuit against the GTAA that will be surely filed in the near future. Maybe even add NavCanada into the respondents... :smt014
---------- ADS -----------
 
Have Pratts - Will Travel
fish4life
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2405
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by fish4life »

So to play devils advocate it makes sense to inconvenience the corporate jets with these restricted slots, it is democracy at its finest. The airlines have been getting tons of flow delays with this construction as well and they have slots published 6 months in advance. If you delay one 320/37 about 150+ people are effected, if you delay a corporate jet 5-10max are effected. It sure seems to make sense to restrict corporate jet traffic a lot more so the needs of the few don't outweigh the needs of the many.

This weeks weather has caused a bunch of delays/ cancellations in the airlines world why shouldn't corporate suffer the same fate?
---------- ADS -----------
 
skypirate88
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:46 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by skypirate88 »

Tried to leave YQB this morning. We took a 30 minute flow delay at 6 am on a Saturday.

I can only imagine the trouble you corporate guys are going through.
---------- ADS -----------
 
A mile of road will take you a mile, but a mile of runway can take you anywhere
securitas
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:09 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by securitas »

ATC flow delays are a result of the airport capacity being reduced to roughly 30 arrivals per hour from 60+ due to the 05/23 closure. When demand exceeds capacity on a routine basis, obviously halving the acceptance rate will lead to delays.

The situation is no different than a restaurant with 30 tables, but 70 parties show up to eat. An ATC provided ground delay program is desirable because, rather than a huge lineup outside (airborne holds), the restaurant traffic controller tells people to not leave home until a certain time, so when they arrive they get a table right away. Since people don't leave home exactly to the second they were assigned, and their time enroute to the restaurant varies because of traffic, red lights, etc, a small lineup at the door is desirable because, the minute a table is free, the new group can be seated, and no table slots are wasted.

The ground delay program allocates delays equally among all users who are filed into the program. These delays on the ground save fuel, airtime, etc., and the pilots/dispatchers can plan proper fuel, consolidate flights, manage duty day issues, etc.

The GTAA has published it's own protocol because it owns the airport and operates it as it sees fit. They dictate preferential runways due to noise abatement during night operations, but in terms of runway assignment for minimizing delay, that is driven primarily by the airline customers. Don't like a 25 kt crosswind component and want rwy 33? Talk to your company who demands an east west configuration to minimize delays.
fish4life wrote:How does it work in the US? Is it a bit different because they have "corporate airports" and "airline airports"?
Bizav flying to the corporate airports encounter demand rarely approaches capacity and therefore less potential for delay.
Pratt X 3 wrote:The airlines have been getting tons of flow delays with this construction as well and they have slots published 6 months in advance.
ATC slots are published "day of" when the GDP is issued.
cdnpilot77 wrote:I've never had any issue planning and going into any non-military airport in the USA. Unlike Canadians who see airports as a hassle and disruptive to their lives until they need their $299 all inclusive vacation, Americans, for the most part, view airports as a vital part of their local economy.
Obviously you haven't flown to the major airports when they are constrained due to construction or weather. Convective weather & Snow causes a GDP into ORD at least weekly. The NY 3 have GDPs several times a week. SFO GDP happens basically daily, where ground delays of 2-4 hrs are routine. LAX had construction all last summer and was the same as YYZ today. Keep in mind these US airports have much higher capacity than demand on a routine basis, whereas YYZ demand is regularly at maximum capacity for 4-5 hrs a day during the week. Even Augusta GA runs a GDP during the masters. And also keep in mind this is just speaking of GDPs. The local flow control for every center issues routine traffic departure delays (apreq) independent or on top of the GDP. Never flown YYZ to the eastern seaboard major airports? Ever notice the rj's holding near the deice bay with engines off and apu running waiting for an apreq time?
cdnpilot77 wrote:Frustrating is an understatement...we had 2 airplanes departing south Florida delayed by flow last week and I just learned of a second one tonight being delayed by flow and will have less than 15min window to meet the closing of their slot time. I just don't get it.
GDP slot times must be adhered to by the tower controller at the departure airport within +- 5 min.
skypirate88 wrote:Tried to leave YQB this morning. We took a 30 minute flow delay at 6 am on a Saturday.

I can only imagine the trouble you corporate guys are going through.
Lots of people wanted to eat breakfast at the yyz restaurant on Saturday, and you couldn't get a table until half an hour later.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Your restaurant analogy is interesting...our clients are the type that tip the doorman so we don't have to wait for a table...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Speed_Bird1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:09 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by Speed_Bird1 »

We had a slot allocation back into YYZ for 10pm the other night from YOW. Called clearance about 8.30 for a 9pm departure and was told because of flow, our new wheels up time was 10.49pm! Then listened for the next 2 hours whilst every AC/Encore got the requested time they wanted with no more than 20 mins delayed at the most. YYZ was VFR and they were using the 33's. I even heard an AC guy call up and say he wasn't going to make his slot time and they called him back with a new slot for 15 minutes later, and our time was still over an hour away.

Whilst I understand the current limitations due to the runways, this seems a little one sided as far as delays. The biggest issue is managing clients with anything from a 30min to 4 hour delay. Better stock up the booze and snacks
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1456
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Speed_Bird1 wrote:...Better stock up the booze and snacks...
You mean for us, right? :goodman: :D

Most clients find other means to get home. We're left babysitting the bird and heading to a hotel until the next morning.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
 
securitas
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:09 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by securitas »

Have a look here to see who pays how much to the doorman...

https://www.torontopearson.com/en/Airpo ... _and_Fees/#
Speed_Bird1 wrote:We had a slot allocation back into YYZ for 10pm the other night from YOW. Called clearance about 8.30 for a 9pm departure and was told because of flow, our new wheels up time was 10.49pm! Then listened for the next 2 hours whilst every AC/Encore got the requested time they wanted with no more than 20 mins delayed at the most. YYZ was VFR and they were using the 33's. I even heard an AC guy call up and say he wasn't going to make his slot time and they called him back with a new slot for 15 minutes later, and our time was still over an hour away.

Whilst I understand the current limitations due to the runways, this seems a little one sided as far as delays. The biggest issue is managing clients with anything from a 30min to 4 hour delay. Better stock up the booze and snacks
The best rate on 33 is 42 planes per hour, depending on the number of lights & heavies. This consists of 36 on 33L and 6 offloads onto 33R, which then delays departures while they wait for the lander. The number of offloads can be dynamic depending on the balance of arrival vs departure demand.

Unless your flight plan was filed into the system before the GDP was published (there is always lots of notice to file prior), you will get an arrival slot at the end of the program. Occasionally, GDPs are run with a "pop-up factor" which allows room for extra slots within, but when the system is constrained this much, a small or zero factor is applied. Thus, last minute filers can encounter larger total delay regardless of their celebrity status or how many fat stacks they're willing to lay down.

The airlines you heard are getting the times they requested, because they know in advance from their dispatch what their departure slot time is. For example, the flight was scheduled at 800 and gets an atc delay until 930, that flight knows to delay boarding etc. and call up and request 930. It only seems that they are getting what they requested, but the delay is roughly the same as everyone else's. When you see aircraft getting just a handful of minutes after they requested, it's either done to reduce the airborne holding volume at destination by pushing things back, or to accommodate a company aircraft off another airport that couldn't make its time.....see below:

In terms of missing a slot, with hundreds of flights and code share partners, the airline dispatchers are able to use what is called a "slot credit substitution". It allows both them and ATC to trade slots with their other flights. For example, because of a boarding delay, flight 123 can't arrive at 1900, so it will trade that arrival slot with flight 456, who was supposed to arrive at 1915. 456 then gets to depart earlier and preserve a duty day, or someone already airborne gets a shorter hold.

If you think keeping one VIP happy by feeding beer and pretzels, assigning blame to faceless air traffic control, and ordering a limo is tough, just imagine trying to balance the priorities of 1500 daily flights with dispatchers swapping times due to crew duty day issues, aircraft missing slots due to boarding, baggage or mechanical issues, aircraft not departing on time due to inbound traffic, runway inspections or deicing, missed approaches taking up a slot, 2 airlines that want to run a different operation from the 3rd which conflicts with atc priorities of traffic management, adjusting to changing winds, weather, and runway operations, all the while ensuring that there is always enough airborne inventory so slots aren't missed, and there aren't too many planes holding to overwork the enroute controller, with pressure from the customers to up the rate, and pressure from the tower to allow more room between arrivals for contingency, on your 9th 12hr day in a row just to make the system work and then being criticized by a special snowflake.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by securitas on Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
securitas
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:09 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by securitas »

Have a look here to see who pays how much to the doorman...

https://www.torontopearson.com/en/Airpo ... _and_Fees/#
Speed_Bird1 wrote:We had a slot allocation back into YYZ for 10pm the other night from YOW. Called clearance about 8.30 for a 9pm departure and was told because of flow, our new wheels up time was 10.49pm! Then listened for the next 2 hours whilst every AC/Encore got the requested time they wanted with no more than 20 mins delayed at the most. YYZ was VFR and they were using the 33's. I even heard an AC guy call up and say he wasn't going to make his slot time and they called him back with a new slot for 15 minutes later, and our time was still over an hour away.

Whilst I understand the current limitations due to the runways, this seems a little one sided as far as delays. The biggest issue is managing clients with anything from a 30min to 4 hour delay. Better stock up the booze and snacks
The best rate on 33 is 42 planes per hour, depending on the number of lights & heavies. This consists of 36 on 33L and 6 offloads onto 33R, which then delays departures while they wait for the lander. The number of offloads can be dynamic depending on the balance of arrival vs departure demand.

Unless your flight plan was filed into the system before the GDP was published (there is always lots of notice to file prior), you will get an arrival slot at the end of the program. Occasionally, GDPs are run with a "pop-up factor" which allows room for extra slots within, but when the system is constrained this much, a small or zero factor is applied. Thus, last minute filers can encounter larger total delay regardless of their celebrity status or how many fat stacks they're willing to lay down.

The airlines you heard are getting the times they requested, because they know in advance from their dispatch what their departure slot time is. For example, the flight was scheduled at 800 and gets an atc delay until 930, that flight knows to delay boarding etc. and call up and request 930. It only seems that they are getting what they requested, but the delay is roughly the same as everyone else's. When you see aircraft getting just a handful of minutes after they requested, it's either done to reduce the airborne holding volume at destination by pushing things back, or to accommodate a company aircraft off another airport that couldn't make its time.....see below:

In terms of missing a slot, with hundreds of flights and code share partners, the airline dispatchers are able to use what is called a "slot credit substitution". It allows both them and ATC to trade slots with their other flights. For example, because of a boarding delay, flight 123 can't arrive at 1900, so it will trade that arrival slot with flight 456, who was supposed to arrive at 1915. 456 then gets to depart earlier and preserve a duty day, or someone already airborne gets a shorter hold.

If you think keeping one VIP happy by feeding beer and pretzels, assigning blame to faceless air traffic control, and ordering a limo is tough, just imagine trying to balance the priorities of 1500 daily flights with dispatchers swapping times due to crew duty day issues, aircraft missing slots due to boarding, baggage or mechanical issues, aircraft not departing on time due to inbound traffic, runway inspections or deicing, missed approaches taking up a slot, 2 airlines that want to run a different operation from the 3rd which conflicts with atc priorities of traffic management, adjusting to changing winds, weather, and runway operations, all the while ensuring that there is always enough airborne inventory so slots aren't missed, and there aren't too many planes holding to overwork the enroute controller, with pressure from the customers to up the rate, and pressure from the tower to allow more room between arrivals for contingency, on your 9th 12hr day in a row just to make the system work and then being criticized by a special snowflake.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Pratt X 3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:19 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Thanks for the explanation, could have been nicer without the passive aggressive tones, but good nonetheless. I think there is an understanding by all users on the need for the delays but it really comes down to the execution. Once again, the GTAA's method of governance is lacking and chaotic. The slots introduced for General/Business Aviation users would be fine if they actually had any link to NavCanada's slots. Fact is, NavCanada doesn't acknowledge the GTAA slots and even some of the NavCanada employees don't know about the GTAA's slot program at YYZ. It is sad that one wishes for a system that was more like the heavy bureaucratic style of the European system where your airport slot is paired with your departure slot as well as you en-route slot and so on. One call to change them all.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Have Pratts - Will Travel
User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Pratt X 3 wrote:Thanks for the explanation, could have been nicer without the passive aggressive tones, but good nonetheless. I think there is an understanding by all users on the need for the delays but it really comes down to the execution. Once again, the GTAA's method of governance is lacking and chaotic. The slots introduced for General/Business Aviation users would be fine if they actually had any link to NavCanada's slots. Fact is, NavCanada doesn't acknowledge the GTAA slots and even some of the NavCanada employees don't know about the GTAA's slot program at YYZ. It is sad that one wishes for a system that was more like the heavy bureaucratic style of the European system where your airport slot is paired with your departure slot as well as you en-route slot and so on. One call to change them all.

I agree with this...and don't forget the overnight after hours 0030-0630 slot which also is separate from the rest.

Securitas, I don't put any of the blame for this chaos on the controllers...far from it actually. I'm sorry if my posts come across that way.
---------- ADS -----------
 
securitas
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:09 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by securitas »

It is intended as sarcastic humour, not passive aggressive but regardless, I'm happy to explain.

Anybody can look up their GDP time at the link below, but keep in mind, it doesn't apply to the apreq delays which I mentioned earlier.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/edct/jsp/edctLookUp.jsp

You can find FAA GDP info here
https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/

You can find Canadian ATC system status info here
https://extranetapps.navcanada.ca/ois/ois.aspx

I can't comment on the GTAA slot reservations or their ban of GA arrivals from 3-8pm. ATC's primary focus is managing the airspace and minimizing the delay for all users. The less delay, the easier my day, so believe me when I say I'm on your side.
---------- ADS -----------
 
'97 Tercel
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by '97 Tercel »

Fact is that GTAA has a hate-on for anything 'non-airline' at CYYZ, and have for a long time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Speed_Bird1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:09 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by Speed_Bird1 »

Wow easy tiger!

Thank you for the explanation Securitas, although I'm not convinced you were going for sarcasm. My comment was not an attack on ATC, mearly an observation, hence why I put "it seems" in my comments. I'm glad you explained how it all works. Now I can explain to my little VIP why his shiny toy isn't allowed to move.

I think my waistline might come under some pressure though.......ah the corporate life, hurry up and wait!

Your Snowflake

Speed_Bird1
---------- ADS -----------
 
whatsitdoingnow
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:32 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Post by whatsitdoingnow »

Just tell your boss you need to smack him in the face so you can be a medevac :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Corporate”