Air Canada / Rouge
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Air Canada / Rouge
Can somebody please explain to me the major differences between AC and Rouge. When you are interviewed are you interviewing for both positions? If you fly for Rouge are you on the same seniority list as AC, can you bid into an AC position and aircraft? Is it the same pay scale?
Thanks
Thanks
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Sorta, as a new hire. All new hires are on flat pay for the first four years. Advantage of rouge would be no reserve, opportunity for overtime (extra $$$)iwant2flyifr wrote: Is it the same pay scale?
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Rouge pilots are Air Canada pilots. Same seniority list.
Same hourly for first 4 years any FO or RP position.
Same seat Rouge after first 4 years pays less then mainline by about 25%.
Left seat mainline pay steps at years of service, left seat Rouge pay steps at higher of years in status or 1/2 years of service.
You can bid a Captain seat in your first 4 years though and get off flat pay. EMJ going to 1 year guys... 320 not far behind... 737 expected also to be junior left seat...
You can get OT/draft at both...
Same hourly for first 4 years any FO or RP position.
Same seat Rouge after first 4 years pays less then mainline by about 25%.
Left seat mainline pay steps at years of service, left seat Rouge pay steps at higher of years in status or 1/2 years of service.
You can bid a Captain seat in your first 4 years though and get off flat pay. EMJ going to 1 year guys... 320 not far behind... 737 expected also to be junior left seat...
You can get OT/draft at both...
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Also, younger crews and better destinations at rouge.MCB wrote:Sorta, as a new hire. All new hires are on flat pay for the first four years. Advantage of rouge would be no reserve, opportunity for overtime (extra $$$)iwant2flyifr wrote: Is it the same pay scale?
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Are the AC pilots going to approve expanding the Rouge fleet beyond the current limits?
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Unfortunately, probably.rudder wrote:Are the AC pilots going to approve expanding the Rouge fleet beyond the current limits?
PROC_HDG
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
If the latest Cargo Let extension is any indication, absolutely......and Mainline will cease to exist within a decade. 50% of our apathetic pilot group didn't even bother to vote on this critical Cargo issue. Over half of those that did vote bought our "AC manager wanna-be" run Unions fierce sell job. It was shocking to see the effort that our Union officials put into getting this let extended on behalf of the Company, with almost ---zero--- in return for the Membership. A very dangerous future wide-body outsourcing precedent has now been set. After watching our Union puppets, I am thoroughly convinced ACPA works for AC first, pilots be damned. Our opportunity to draw a firm "line in the sand" on Scope has been pitched in the dumpster.rudder wrote:Are the AC pilots going to approve expanding the Rouge fleet beyond the current limits?
Every fin that goes to Rouge puts increasing downward pressure on Mainline wages and working conditions. Rouge has already decimated the productive Mainline 320 flying, and limited a variety of overseas Mainline wide-body opportunities as well. Seniority has been flipped on its back and created position bidding chaos that will only get worse. The number of divisions within the Membership body are massive, nothing larger and more apparent than the Rouge/Mainline split. When Rouge reaches "critical mass", Mainline WACON will become a memory.
I have absolutely no doubt the forthcoming increase in the Rouge fleet will be praised by our leadership with a ringing "unanimous endorsement" from our traitorous MEC along with the standard accompanying "veiled threat" if we vote no. Our Union officials have no concept of the word unity. They have ---never once--- not "meddled" with the emotions of the Membership, or allowed any proposed agreement in the last decade to stand on its ---own merit by itself---, and face proper Membership scrutiny.......I don't expect the forthcoming agreement to be proposed any differently.
Watching our unity crumble is like watching a mighty forest get clearcut. The only thing worse is when you notice how few Members actually care, and realize that our own elected Union officials....those charged with keeping unity sacrosanct......are actively facilitating it's demise.
How's that for an answer??? DP.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Could it perhaps be the strict regime of seniority based everything that is allowing Rouge to flourish? I bet if seniority based everything wasn't used at mainline it was used at Rouge people would be more against it.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
No other pilot group at any other Major National carrier in the world is allowing their Seniority system to be eroded as fast, or allow their unity to crumble as quickly and effectively as the Air Canada pilot group. Pilot unity and its Seniority system at Air Canada is now a complete train wreck.
Make Rouge bigger (B-Scale)....great idea(wtf)......different pensions, socialized vs. seniority bidding, course rights, grandfather pay, Sky pilots flying 25 EMJ's, pay scales all over the map, outsourcing cargo....the list is gigantic. Calin and Ben have done a masterful job of dividing the group, and manipulating our MEC and pilot body into believing that we pilots "hold the keys to Air Canada's future" and only complete cooperation and capitulation will result in Air Canada's future success. Our group and elected officials are buying it "hook line and sinker". Our MEC works hard to ensure every MOA or let requested by Air Canada passes and that Managements message is heard by the pilot group by hosting Management "love in sessions" with ACPA dues. Its amusing to see them side by side on stage.
Take a look at the pilot groups at Delta, Air France or American. I'm certain they are absolutely astounded by what we are allowing to occur to our profession.
DP.
Make Rouge bigger (B-Scale)....great idea(wtf)......different pensions, socialized vs. seniority bidding, course rights, grandfather pay, Sky pilots flying 25 EMJ's, pay scales all over the map, outsourcing cargo....the list is gigantic. Calin and Ben have done a masterful job of dividing the group, and manipulating our MEC and pilot body into believing that we pilots "hold the keys to Air Canada's future" and only complete cooperation and capitulation will result in Air Canada's future success. Our group and elected officials are buying it "hook line and sinker". Our MEC works hard to ensure every MOA or let requested by Air Canada passes and that Managements message is heard by the pilot group by hosting Management "love in sessions" with ACPA dues. Its amusing to see them side by side on stage.
Take a look at the pilot groups at Delta, Air France or American. I'm certain they are absolutely astounded by what we are allowing to occur to our profession.
DP.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Nailed it...
Divide and conquer is a proven method. Of course the gov't didn't help either...
Divide and conquer is a proven method. Of course the gov't didn't help either...
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
I can't believe the cargo let passed.
All but one person I spoke with was against it.
We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
All but one person I spoke with was against it.
We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
What did ACPA get for the AC pilots in return?altiplano wrote:I can't believe the cargo let passed.
All but one person I spoke with was against it.
We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Can you in a nutshell, for non-AC peeps, explain what this cargo thing is about?
Thanks
Thanks
Trapped in time, surrounded by evil, low on gas.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
AC Cargo moving freight on B767 (CargoJet) not flown by ACPA pilots.Jim la Jungle wrote:Can you in a nutshell, for non-AC peeps, explain what this cargo thing is about?
Thanks
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Wet lease pay credits... max a couple hundred bucks a year per pilot. To give away widebody overseas pilot jobs and set a dangerous precedent that doesn't help us now and will screw us down the line.rudder wrote:What did ACPA get for the AC pilots in return?altiplano wrote:I can't believe the cargo let passed.
All but one person I spoke with was against it.
We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
ACPA think (say) they got leverage on the deal. But it turns out they actually gave it away as the corporation relies less and less on us to fly their lift...
ACPA think (say) they got a benefit with an extension to a 900/hr per year guarantee too. But it turns out most of us fly flat out every month so it doesn't help really anyone and it also doesn't apply to reserve pilots, rouge pilots or new hires.
They say also that Article 1 is strengthened by this? I can't believe they come up with this stuff... it's laughable.
So in the end and after tax maybe a steak dinner with a cheap bottle of wine is what I will get for having my job done for me.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
I didn't realize that AC did so much Cargo lift in the first place, but Obviously they were doing enough to be a divisive let in your collective agreement. As far a strengthening Article 1, does that refer to scope? Were there any changes to the long term plans for the 25 remaining E190?
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Are the rumors of AC Pilot group wanting to revert to ALPA true? I've heard it from a few people that the Pilots have not been happy with ACPA as of late.
- Jean-Pierre
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Man watching the executive dismantle all that Air Canada pilot worked for piece by piece is just sad. They are just toying with them. It was a bit arrogant maybe to think pilot could match these guy on their playing field. This was the last great paying job in Canada. Time to set your sight overseas.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
There is work to be done at the union. Being the lowest paid pilots at a legacy airline in north america is disturbing, specially when the company is making record profit.
Allowing rouge expansion and outsource cargo flights to other airlines is beyond comprehensible.
I hope you guys set the standard for our future pilots!!!!!!!
Allowing rouge expansion and outsource cargo flights to other airlines is beyond comprehensible.
I hope you guys set the standard for our future pilots!!!!!!!