Air Canada / Rouge

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iwant2flyifr
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Air Canada / Rouge

#1 Post by iwant2flyifr » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:33 am

Can somebody please explain to me the major differences between AC and Rouge. When you are interviewed are you interviewing for both positions? If you fly for Rouge are you on the same seniority list as AC, can you bid into an AC position and aircraft? Is it the same pay scale?

Thanks
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NotDirty!
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#2 Post by NotDirty! » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:34 am

From what I understand: yes, yes, yes, and no.
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MCB
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#3 Post by MCB » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:40 am

iwant2flyifr wrote: Is it the same pay scale?
Sorta, as a new hire. All new hires are on flat pay for the first four years. Advantage of rouge would be no reserve, opportunity for overtime (extra $$$)
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altiplano
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#4 Post by altiplano » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:35 am

Rouge pilots are Air Canada pilots. Same seniority list.

Same hourly for first 4 years any FO or RP position.

Same seat Rouge after first 4 years pays less then mainline by about 25%.

Left seat mainline pay steps at years of service, left seat Rouge pay steps at higher of years in status or 1/2 years of service.

You can bid a Captain seat in your first 4 years though and get off flat pay. EMJ going to 1 year guys... 320 not far behind... 737 expected​ also to be junior left seat...

You can get OT/draft at both...
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yycflyguy
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#5 Post by yycflyguy » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:40 am

MCB wrote:
iwant2flyifr wrote: Is it the same pay scale?
Sorta, as a new hire. All new hires are on flat pay for the first four years. Advantage of rouge would be no reserve, opportunity for overtime (extra $$$)
Also, younger crews and better destinations at rouge.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#6 Post by rudder » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:05 am

Are the AC pilots going to approve expanding the Rouge fleet beyond the current limits?
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#7 Post by PROC_HDG » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:19 am

rudder wrote:Are the AC pilots going to approve expanding the Rouge fleet beyond the current limits?
Unfortunately, probably.

PROC_HDG
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#8 Post by Duke p » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:17 pm

rudder wrote:Are the AC pilots going to approve expanding the Rouge fleet beyond the current limits?
If the latest Cargo Let extension is any indication, absolutely......and Mainline will cease to exist within a decade. 50% of our apathetic pilot group didn't even bother to vote on this critical Cargo issue. Over half of those that did vote bought our "AC manager wanna-be" run Unions fierce sell job. It was shocking to see the effort that our Union officials put into getting this let extended on behalf of the Company, with almost ---zero--- in return for the Membership. A very dangerous future wide-body outsourcing precedent has now been set. After watching our Union puppets, I am thoroughly convinced ACPA works for AC first, pilots be damned. Our opportunity to draw a firm "line in the sand" on Scope has been pitched in the dumpster.

Every fin that goes to Rouge puts increasing downward pressure on Mainline wages and working conditions. Rouge has already decimated the productive Mainline 320 flying, and limited a variety of overseas Mainline wide-body opportunities as well. Seniority has been flipped on its back and created position bidding chaos that will only get worse. The number of divisions within the Membership body are massive, nothing larger and more apparent than the Rouge/Mainline split. When Rouge reaches "critical mass", Mainline WACON will become a memory.

I have absolutely no doubt the forthcoming increase in the Rouge fleet will be praised by our leadership with a ringing "unanimous endorsement" from our traitorous MEC along with the standard accompanying "veiled threat" if we vote no. Our Union officials have no concept of the word unity. They have ---never once--- not "meddled" with the emotions of the Membership, or allowed any proposed agreement in the last decade to stand on its ---own merit by itself---, and face proper Membership scrutiny.......I don't expect the forthcoming agreement to be proposed any differently.

Watching our unity crumble is like watching a mighty forest get clearcut. The only thing worse is when you notice how few Members actually care, and realize that our own elected Union officials....those charged with keeping unity sacrosanct......are actively facilitating it's demise.

How's that for an answer??? :) DP.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#9 Post by fish4life » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:24 pm

Could it perhaps be the strict regime of seniority based everything that is allowing Rouge to flourish? I bet if seniority based everything wasn't used at mainline it was used at Rouge people would be more against it.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#10 Post by Duke p » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:28 am

No other pilot group at any other Major National carrier in the world is allowing their Seniority system to be eroded as fast, or allow their unity to crumble as quickly and effectively as the Air Canada pilot group. Pilot unity and its Seniority system at Air Canada is now a complete train wreck.

Make Rouge bigger (B-Scale)....great idea(wtf)......different pensions, socialized vs. seniority bidding, course rights, grandfather pay, Sky pilots flying 25 EMJ's, pay scales all over the map, outsourcing cargo....the list is gigantic. Calin and Ben have done a masterful job of dividing the group, and manipulating our MEC and pilot body into believing that we pilots "hold the keys to Air Canada's future" and only complete cooperation and capitulation will result in Air Canada's future success. Our group and elected officials are buying it "hook line and sinker". Our MEC works hard to ensure every MOA or let requested by Air Canada passes and that Managements message is heard by the pilot group by hosting Management "love in sessions" with ACPA dues. Its amusing to see them side by side on stage.

Take a look at the pilot groups at Delta, Air France or American. I'm certain they are absolutely astounded by what we are allowing to occur to our profession.

DP.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#11 Post by groundpilot » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:33 pm

Nailed it...

Divide and conquer is a proven method. Of course the gov't didn't help either...
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#12 Post by altiplano » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:18 am

I can't believe the cargo let passed.

All but one person I spoke with was against it.

We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#13 Post by rudder » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:41 am

altiplano wrote:I can't believe the cargo let passed.

All but one person I spoke with was against it.

We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
What did ACPA get for the AC pilots in return?
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Jim la Jungle
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#14 Post by Jim la Jungle » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:46 am

Can you in a nutshell, for non-AC peeps, explain what this cargo thing is about?

Thanks
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#15 Post by rudder » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:51 am

Jim la Jungle wrote:Can you in a nutshell, for non-AC peeps, explain what this cargo thing is about?

Thanks
AC Cargo moving freight on B767 (CargoJet) not flown by ACPA pilots.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#16 Post by altiplano » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:01 pm

rudder wrote:
altiplano wrote:I can't believe the cargo let passed.

All but one person I spoke with was against it.

We are voting our own jobs to be outsourced, unbelievable.
What did ACPA get for the AC pilots in return?
Wet lease pay credits... max a couple hundred bucks a year per pilot. To give away widebody overseas pilot jobs and set a dangerous precedent that doesn't help us now and will screw us down the line.

ACPA think (say) they got leverage on the deal. But it turns out they actually gave it away as the corporation relies less and less on us to fly their lift...

ACPA think (say) they got a benefit with an extension to a 900/hr per year guarantee too. But it turns out most of us fly flat out every month so it doesn't help really anyone and it also doesn't apply to reserve pilots, rouge pilots or new hires.

They say also that Article 1 is strengthened by this? I can't believe they come up with this stuff... it's laughable.

So in the end and after tax maybe a steak dinner with a cheap bottle of wine is what I will get for having my job done for me.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#17 Post by hithere » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:10 pm

I didn't realize that AC did so much Cargo lift in the first place, but Obviously they were doing enough to be a divisive let in your collective agreement. As far a strengthening Article 1, does that refer to scope? Were there any changes to the long term plans for the 25 remaining E190?
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#18 Post by Black_Tusk » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:17 pm

Are the rumors of AC Pilot group wanting to revert to ALPA true? I've heard it from a few people that the Pilots have not been happy with ACPA as of late.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#19 Post by Jean-Pierre » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:09 am

Man watching the executive dismantle all that Air Canada pilot worked for piece by piece is just sad. They are just toying with them. It was a bit arrogant maybe to think pilot could match these guy on their playing field. This was the last great paying job in Canada. Time to set your sight overseas.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#20 Post by airboy1 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:39 am

There is work to be done at the union. Being the lowest paid pilots at a legacy airline in north america is disturbing, specially when the company is making record profit.

Allowing rouge expansion and outsource cargo flights to other airlines is beyond comprehensible.

I hope you guys set the standard for our future pilots!!!!!!!
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#21 Post by rudder » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:30 am

ACPA is in a self-renewing 10 year pilot contract. The matter of pilot pay CANNOT be included in items submitted for arbitration. Regardless, there is a requirement of cost neutrality as a mandatory principle in the terms of reference for the arbitrator.

However, these restrictions do not preclude ACPA from bringing up the subject of pay in any open interest based discussions with AC. And given that Scope is a non-arbitral section of the contract - any ask by AC to amend or breach existing scope limitations could logically be met with a response from ACPA that raw pilot pay rates and rate of increase be discussed.

Quid pro quo.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#22 Post by Jean-Pierre » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:57 pm

Air Canada is deemed a essential service to the country. It has been decided that they cannot strike if they are unhappy with their contract right? If they don't like it they must vote with their feet and move to another company with better pay and condition.
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#23 Post by altiplano » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:00 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:Air Canada is deemed a essential service to the country. It has been decided that they cannot strike if they are unhappy with their contract right? If they don't like it they must vote with their feet and move to another company with better pay and condition.
Wrong.

I wish we were deemed an essential service. Holding fast to arbitration would do better than we have secured otherwise...
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#24 Post by rudder » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:28 am

“Rouge is designed to do precisely what it was said could not be done,” Rovinescu said in his afternoon speech. “From the start, it has contributed significantly to our profitability.”

He credited Rouge for enabling Air Canada to maintain or expand leisure routes and enter new international markets in Europe, Asia and to sun destinations.

“It gave us flexibility to move in and out of markets to meet seasonal demand and allowed us to stay in the game in markets we were losing.”

Rouge’s first flights in 2013 were on four aircraft flying 14 routes. This summer Rovincescu said he expects the airline will operate 49 aircraft across a network of 93 routes, touching five continents. This includes two new routes out of Vancouver this summer: to Nagoya, Japan and London’s Gatwick Airport.

https://www.biv.com/article/2017/4/west ... ary-brand/
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#25 Post by Old fella » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:34 am

rudder wrote:“Rouge is designed to do precisely what it was said could not be done,” Rovinescu said in his afternoon speech. “From the start, it has contributed significantly to our profitability.”

He credited Rouge for enabling Air Canada to maintain or expand leisure routes and enter new international markets in Europe, Asia and to sun destinations.

“It gave us flexibility to move in and out of markets to meet seasonal demand and allowed us to stay in the game in markets we were losing.”

Rouge’s first flights in 2013 were on four aircraft flying 14 routes. This summer Rovincescu said he expects the airline will operate 49 aircraft across a network of 93 routes, touching five continents. This includes two new routes out of Vancouver this summer: to Nagoya, Japan and London’s Gatwick Airport.

https://www.biv.com/article/2017/4/west ... ary-brand/
AC has flexibility through Rouge, ok good for your airline. What about lowering the cost to consumers, any examples you can share, or was the introduction of Rouge used to lower wages and increase profitability. Nothing against AC generating profit mind you, it's needed to keep you folks employed and the airline running. As consumers we seem to think(right or wrong) these LCCs or ultraLCC are introduced to lower the cost of OUR travel. How many times are we gonna be indoctrinated with the acronym " no-frills" aka WJ new startup. FFS, tis no- frills now, you pay for everything short of the air you breath in- flight and taking a leak in the toilet. Sometimes I wish there was a wee bit of honesty from all sides, the providers and consumers of the airline services.
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