New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
Good on em. Pearson is basically begging customers to leave. Hamilton, Kitchener, Buttonville, Oshawa can all capatilize on this. Maybe Downsview should open up for some corporate operations. Be a good chance for Bombardier to show off their biz jets too.
Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
Downsview would be ideal, the problem lies in the fact that it's right under the approaches for the 24s. I can't remember the in trail atc needs to leave between arrivals to squeeze a yzd in or out but it's pretty big. I know TEB operates underneath the EWR arrivals, but I think YZD is about three miles closer to YYZ than the TEB scenario. I live out the west side so if my owner wanted to move to ykf or yhm I'd be more than happy to not spend over an hour on the 401 trying to get through Milton!goingnowherefast wrote:Good on em. Pearson is basically begging customers to leave. Hamilton, Kitchener, Buttonville, Oshawa can all capatilize on this. Maybe Downsview should open up for some corporate operations. Be a good chance for Bombardier to show off their biz jets too.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
And as marketed: They have a fleet of executive/turbine helicopters (AgustaWestland 119 & 109’s) which can provide further transport between YKF and the GTA, if required.
The YYZ slots don’t appear to affect helicopter traffic and the helicopters would also allow for easy access to other parts of the city or surrounding areas (YTZ, YKZ, YZD, Polson Pier, ect).
Although helicopters aren't the “cheapest” transportation service out there - with all the inconveniences caused by the new slots, I'm sure for execs and wealthy individuals who are already travelling on corporate aircraft, the additional cost for a 25 minute flight to get between YKF and the GTA is actually a fairly quick and convenient solution. (I’d bet on most days it takes at least an hour to drive from any of the main FBO’s at YYZ into the downtown core).
The cheaper option of using YKF vs. YYZ (fuel, hangar, ground services, landing fees, ect.) would help counteract the added costs of utilizing the helicopter service.
The YYZ slots don’t appear to affect helicopter traffic and the helicopters would also allow for easy access to other parts of the city or surrounding areas (YTZ, YKZ, YZD, Polson Pier, ect).
Although helicopters aren't the “cheapest” transportation service out there - with all the inconveniences caused by the new slots, I'm sure for execs and wealthy individuals who are already travelling on corporate aircraft, the additional cost for a 25 minute flight to get between YKF and the GTA is actually a fairly quick and convenient solution. (I’d bet on most days it takes at least an hour to drive from any of the main FBO’s at YYZ into the downtown core).
The cheaper option of using YKF vs. YYZ (fuel, hangar, ground services, landing fees, ect.) would help counteract the added costs of utilizing the helicopter service.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
CYZD is only OK if you can go VFR.
IFR? You are either stopping departures (on the 06s) or trying to build an arrival hole (24s). 15s or 33s at YYZ there would be no impact.
If you were arriving at a peak arrival time at YYZ you might end up holding as long as you would if you had just been flying to YYZ. It is closer to YYZ than TEB is to EWR and consequently has a greater effect on operation if the weather limits do not allow VFR. I don't think the GA community would like the restrictions operating into here.
Interesting reading this discussion, as this has mostly come up due to the runway construction on 05/23. Securitas has covered most things from the ATC side. It has not been easy over the last month, believe me!
Both the airlines and corporate have chanced their arm on a couple of occasions...for example
Filing for CYKZ....getting airborne and then changing to YYZ. Got the same one hour hold they would have had if they had just waited
or
Accepting the stub operation on 23 (while it is open)...getting airborne and then saying you won't take it. Not going to help matters....and makes flow control more difficult.
In fairness the weather REALLY has not helped over the last few days....the best arrival and departure rates have come from the good weather days (and not pop up thunderstorms). We landed 06R and visual offloads onto 15R last week and ran about 48 planes an hour. Departures were off 06L using "visuals"....and things kept moving pretty well.
The GTAA and Nav Canada have been pretty hamstrung with what we have been able to do because the weather has been so bad.
IFR? You are either stopping departures (on the 06s) or trying to build an arrival hole (24s). 15s or 33s at YYZ there would be no impact.
If you were arriving at a peak arrival time at YYZ you might end up holding as long as you would if you had just been flying to YYZ. It is closer to YYZ than TEB is to EWR and consequently has a greater effect on operation if the weather limits do not allow VFR. I don't think the GA community would like the restrictions operating into here.
Interesting reading this discussion, as this has mostly come up due to the runway construction on 05/23. Securitas has covered most things from the ATC side. It has not been easy over the last month, believe me!
Both the airlines and corporate have chanced their arm on a couple of occasions...for example
Filing for CYKZ....getting airborne and then changing to YYZ. Got the same one hour hold they would have had if they had just waited
or
Accepting the stub operation on 23 (while it is open)...getting airborne and then saying you won't take it. Not going to help matters....and makes flow control more difficult.
In fairness the weather REALLY has not helped over the last few days....the best arrival and departure rates have come from the good weather days (and not pop up thunderstorms). We landed 06R and visual offloads onto 15R last week and ran about 48 planes an hour. Departures were off 06L using "visuals"....and things kept moving pretty well.
The GTAA and Nav Canada have been pretty hamstrung with what we have been able to do because the weather has been so bad.
Seconded!!! Our shift times have been amended during the runway construction, last week we still had the second arrival position open at 1am in the morning.....I am sympathetic...but there are a lot of parties and factors involved in this whole process.I can't comment on the GTAA slot reservations or their ban of GA arrivals from 3-8pm. ATC's primary focus is managing the airspace and minimizing the delay for all users. The less delay, the easier my day, so believe me when I say I'm on your side
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
Had a flow delay of 2:30 the other day trying to fly BWI-YYZ. Ended up going into Hamilton instead. Once we landed, I called Flow to see if anything could be done about the delay and was told that if we accept landing on 23, with 6000ish feet, then we can depart anytime. Winds out of the west, runway was dry and the landing numbers were less than 5500, so we did it. Just wish I had known this sooner - would have elected to go straight from to YYZ earlier. Perhaps my fault for not called the TMU earlier.
- schnitzel2k3
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
That's good to know, I'll keep that in mind for our next trip.
Our jet is good for anything longer than 4500' - inside that the boss gets nervous.
S.
Our jet is good for anything longer than 4500' - inside that the boss gets nervous.
S.
Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
When did the shortened 23 ops become available, and will that continue?
Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
This NOTAM (1 previous version, I believe) has been active since they started work on the runway:
Occasionally, there will be something like this will be part of the GDP message on the OIS (https://extranetapps.navcanada.ca/ois/ois.aspx) website:170350 CYYZ TORONTO/LESTER B.PEARSON INTL
CYYZ FIRST 4667 FT RWY 05 CLSD DUE CONST. THR 05 RELOCATED 4667 FT.
THR 23 DISPLACED 200 FT BEYOND PUB DTHR
DUE OBST 1100 FT NE PUB DTHR 23, 38 FT AGL 592 MSL.
ORANGE MARKERS AND WING BAR LGT EITHER SIDE OF RWY.
LDG RWY 05 NOT AUTH. TKOF RWY 05 AUTH FM INT TWY H2 TO ACFT WITH
WINGSPAN 118 FT OR SMALLER ONLY.
ACFT REQUIRING TKOF RWY 23 FM TWY Q MUST NOTIFY GROUND CTL
UPON INITIAL CTC. DECLARED DIST:
RWY 05: TORA 6108 TODA 6768 ASDA 6108 LDA NOT USABLE
RWY 23: TORA 6453 TODA 6453 ASDA 6453 LDA 5968
APR 051800-0401
APR 06-23 1000-0401
1703301000 TIL 1704240401
Problem is the runway configuration in use due to weather/traffic won't allow 23 to be used (no intersecting runway operation) or possibly not enough staff qualified to run 3 runways (23 & 24L/R). Someone from the Tower could probably explain it better.EVENT TIME: 04/1500 - 05/0359
CONSTRAINED FACILITIES: CZY
CTL ELEMENT: CYYZ
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1401Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 04/1500Z - 05/0359Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 04/1500Z - 05/0359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: CNDN AND CONTIGUOUS US JET DEP ONLY
DEP SCOPE: (2NDTIER) CZM CZU ZAU ZDC ZMP ZBW CZY ZOB ZID ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 373
AVERAGE DELAY: 119
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
COMMENTS: THIS IS A JET ONLY PROGRAM. ALL PROP/TURBOPROP AIRCRAFT
ARE EXPECTED TO ACCEPT RUNWAY 23. IF UNABLE, USERS SHOULD CALL
TMU EAST FOR A NEW EDCT OR THE AVERAGE DELAY WILL BE APPLIED TO THE
FLIGHT IN THE AIR. FOR ANY JETS THAT CAN ACCEPT RWY 23, CALL TMU
EAST AT 1-800-268-4831 FOR AN EXEMPTION TO YOUR EDCT.
Have Pratts - Will Travel
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
Remember also that there is no ILS approach on 23 either...so to run the "stub" operation as we call it, not only does your aircraft type play a role, you have to accept a visual or an RNAV approach.
We are not allowed in the TCU to run RNAV approaches along side each other (with traffic on the parallel), so there will be no ILS monitor which means we have to run a staggered approach. You also factor in WHERE the aircraft are coming from (it is not easy to do cross overs in the arrival area so we try to keep traffic from the south on 24R/L if possible). The flow rate will still be reduced whether or not we are operating on the "3" runways because we can't get the aircraft their respective approaches as easily as before. There are a LOT more heavies operating in and out now (Rouge 767s spring to mind)...so that also plays a factor.
05/23 closes FULLY I think at the end of the month or early May (can't remember the exact date)....so this operation won't be available then.
We are not allowed in the TCU to run RNAV approaches along side each other (with traffic on the parallel), so there will be no ILS monitor which means we have to run a staggered approach. You also factor in WHERE the aircraft are coming from (it is not easy to do cross overs in the arrival area so we try to keep traffic from the south on 24R/L if possible). The flow rate will still be reduced whether or not we are operating on the "3" runways because we can't get the aircraft their respective approaches as easily as before. There are a LOT more heavies operating in and out now (Rouge 767s spring to mind)...so that also plays a factor.
05/23 closes FULLY I think at the end of the month or early May (can't remember the exact date)....so this operation won't be available then.
Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
I'm curious why 2 RNAVS can't be run on the parallels? Is there any change in the works with the LPV capability of aircraft coming ? 2 LPV's in parallel should be as accurate as 2 ILS's, the aircraft I fly is more accurate doing an LPV than a ILS.
Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
It's noon and I'm heading back to YYZ this PM, flight aware says at present 2+10 ground hold in effect, could make for a long day!
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
Did you end up with a delay?target wrote:It's noon and I'm heading back to YYZ this PM, flight aware says at present 2+10 ground hold in effect, could make for a long day!
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
- CL-Skadoo!
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
I think we know the answer to this. What a mess.JohnnyHotRocks wrote:Did you end up with a delay?target wrote:It's noon and I'm heading back to YYZ this PM, flight aware says at present 2+10 ground hold in effect, could make for a long day!
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
- JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
I have heard that the work on 23 will be done by May 16 and there won't be further work in the fall...but apparently the slots will continue!
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
Yup, we fell into line like good little airplane drivers and played their happy little game. Nothing like trying to call for a slot during a peewee hockey game.JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I have heard that the work on 23 will be done by May 16 and there won't be further work in the fall...but apparently the slots will continue!
Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
From last post, no I didn't delayed by slots, but that may be because we ended up flying another leg that had us arrive at 01:30.
Wonder when airlines are going start putting on pressure with the added costs, overtime, delays causing missed connections at one of the worlds most expensive airports to operates out of.
From what I've been told all this is coming from the GTAA, not Nav Canada.
Wonder when airlines are going start putting on pressure with the added costs, overtime, delays causing missed connections at one of the worlds most expensive airports to operates out of.
From what I've been told all this is coming from the GTAA, not Nav Canada.
- JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
So if you get a flow time while waiting to depart another airport for yyz, and you won't make your slot time due to the delay, what is the deal?
- schnitzel2k3
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- JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!
I would think you would at least have a good argument?