New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

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Speed_Bird1
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#51 Post by Speed_Bird1 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:11 pm

We had a slot allocation back into YYZ for 10pm the other night from YOW. Called clearance about 8.30 for a 9pm departure and was told because of flow, our new wheels up time was 10.49pm! Then listened for the next 2 hours whilst every AC/Encore got the requested time they wanted with no more than 20 mins delayed at the most. YYZ was VFR and they were using the 33's. I even heard an AC guy call up and say he wasn't going to make his slot time and they called him back with a new slot for 15 minutes later, and our time was still over an hour away.

Whilst I understand the current limitations due to the runways, this seems a little one sided as far as delays. The biggest issue is managing clients with anything from a 30min to 4 hour delay. Better stock up the booze and snacks
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#52 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:06 pm

Speed_Bird1 wrote:...Better stock up the booze and snacks...
You mean for us, right? :goodman: :D

Most clients find other means to get home. We're left babysitting the bird and heading to a hotel until the next morning.

S.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#53 Post by securitas » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:54 pm

Have a look here to see who pays how much to the doorman...

https://www.torontopearson.com/en/Airpo ... _and_Fees/#
Speed_Bird1 wrote:We had a slot allocation back into YYZ for 10pm the other night from YOW. Called clearance about 8.30 for a 9pm departure and was told because of flow, our new wheels up time was 10.49pm! Then listened for the next 2 hours whilst every AC/Encore got the requested time they wanted with no more than 20 mins delayed at the most. YYZ was VFR and they were using the 33's. I even heard an AC guy call up and say he wasn't going to make his slot time and they called him back with a new slot for 15 minutes later, and our time was still over an hour away.

Whilst I understand the current limitations due to the runways, this seems a little one sided as far as delays. The biggest issue is managing clients with anything from a 30min to 4 hour delay. Better stock up the booze and snacks
The best rate on 33 is 42 planes per hour, depending on the number of lights & heavies. This consists of 36 on 33L and 6 offloads onto 33R, which then delays departures while they wait for the lander. The number of offloads can be dynamic depending on the balance of arrival vs departure demand.

Unless your flight plan was filed into the system before the GDP was published (there is always lots of notice to file prior), you will get an arrival slot at the end of the program. Occasionally, GDPs are run with a "pop-up factor" which allows room for extra slots within, but when the system is constrained this much, a small or zero factor is applied. Thus, last minute filers can encounter larger total delay regardless of their celebrity status or how many fat stacks they're willing to lay down.

The airlines you heard are getting the times they requested, because they know in advance from their dispatch what their departure slot time is. For example, the flight was scheduled at 800 and gets an atc delay until 930, that flight knows to delay boarding etc. and call up and request 930. It only seems that they are getting what they requested, but the delay is roughly the same as everyone else's. When you see aircraft getting just a handful of minutes after they requested, it's either done to reduce the airborne holding volume at destination by pushing things back, or to accommodate a company aircraft off another airport that couldn't make its time.....see below:

In terms of missing a slot, with hundreds of flights and code share partners, the airline dispatchers are able to use what is called a "slot credit substitution". It allows both them and ATC to trade slots with their other flights. For example, because of a boarding delay, flight 123 can't arrive at 1900, so it will trade that arrival slot with flight 456, who was supposed to arrive at 1915. 456 then gets to depart earlier and preserve a duty day, or someone already airborne gets a shorter hold.

If you think keeping one VIP happy by feeding beer and pretzels, assigning blame to faceless air traffic control, and ordering a limo is tough, just imagine trying to balance the priorities of 1500 daily flights with dispatchers swapping times due to crew duty day issues, aircraft missing slots due to boarding, baggage or mechanical issues, aircraft not departing on time due to inbound traffic, runway inspections or deicing, missed approaches taking up a slot, 2 airlines that want to run a different operation from the 3rd which conflicts with atc priorities of traffic management, adjusting to changing winds, weather, and runway operations, all the while ensuring that there is always enough airborne inventory so slots aren't missed, and there aren't too many planes holding to overwork the enroute controller, with pressure from the customers to up the rate, and pressure from the tower to allow more room between arrivals for contingency, on your 9th 12hr day in a row just to make the system work and then being criticized by a special snowflake.
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Last edited by securitas on Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#54 Post by securitas » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:54 pm

Have a look here to see who pays how much to the doorman...

https://www.torontopearson.com/en/Airpo ... _and_Fees/#
Speed_Bird1 wrote:We had a slot allocation back into YYZ for 10pm the other night from YOW. Called clearance about 8.30 for a 9pm departure and was told because of flow, our new wheels up time was 10.49pm! Then listened for the next 2 hours whilst every AC/Encore got the requested time they wanted with no more than 20 mins delayed at the most. YYZ was VFR and they were using the 33's. I even heard an AC guy call up and say he wasn't going to make his slot time and they called him back with a new slot for 15 minutes later, and our time was still over an hour away.

Whilst I understand the current limitations due to the runways, this seems a little one sided as far as delays. The biggest issue is managing clients with anything from a 30min to 4 hour delay. Better stock up the booze and snacks
The best rate on 33 is 42 planes per hour, depending on the number of lights & heavies. This consists of 36 on 33L and 6 offloads onto 33R, which then delays departures while they wait for the lander. The number of offloads can be dynamic depending on the balance of arrival vs departure demand.

Unless your flight plan was filed into the system before the GDP was published (there is always lots of notice to file prior), you will get an arrival slot at the end of the program. Occasionally, GDPs are run with a "pop-up factor" which allows room for extra slots within, but when the system is constrained this much, a small or zero factor is applied. Thus, last minute filers can encounter larger total delay regardless of their celebrity status or how many fat stacks they're willing to lay down.

The airlines you heard are getting the times they requested, because they know in advance from their dispatch what their departure slot time is. For example, the flight was scheduled at 800 and gets an atc delay until 930, that flight knows to delay boarding etc. and call up and request 930. It only seems that they are getting what they requested, but the delay is roughly the same as everyone else's. When you see aircraft getting just a handful of minutes after they requested, it's either done to reduce the airborne holding volume at destination by pushing things back, or to accommodate a company aircraft off another airport that couldn't make its time.....see below:

In terms of missing a slot, with hundreds of flights and code share partners, the airline dispatchers are able to use what is called a "slot credit substitution". It allows both them and ATC to trade slots with their other flights. For example, because of a boarding delay, flight 123 can't arrive at 1900, so it will trade that arrival slot with flight 456, who was supposed to arrive at 1915. 456 then gets to depart earlier and preserve a duty day, or someone already airborne gets a shorter hold.

If you think keeping one VIP happy by feeding beer and pretzels, assigning blame to faceless air traffic control, and ordering a limo is tough, just imagine trying to balance the priorities of 1500 daily flights with dispatchers swapping times due to crew duty day issues, aircraft missing slots due to boarding, baggage or mechanical issues, aircraft not departing on time due to inbound traffic, runway inspections or deicing, missed approaches taking up a slot, 2 airlines that want to run a different operation from the 3rd which conflicts with atc priorities of traffic management, adjusting to changing winds, weather, and runway operations, all the while ensuring that there is always enough airborne inventory so slots aren't missed, and there aren't too many planes holding to overwork the enroute controller, with pressure from the customers to up the rate, and pressure from the tower to allow more room between arrivals for contingency, on your 9th 12hr day in a row just to make the system work and then being criticized by a special snowflake.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#55 Post by Pratt X 3 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:38 am

Thanks for the explanation, could have been nicer without the passive aggressive tones, but good nonetheless. I think there is an understanding by all users on the need for the delays but it really comes down to the execution. Once again, the GTAA's method of governance is lacking and chaotic. The slots introduced for General/Business Aviation users would be fine if they actually had any link to NavCanada's slots. Fact is, NavCanada doesn't acknowledge the GTAA slots and even some of the NavCanada employees don't know about the GTAA's slot program at YYZ. It is sad that one wishes for a system that was more like the heavy bureaucratic style of the European system where your airport slot is paired with your departure slot as well as you en-route slot and so on. One call to change them all.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#56 Post by cdnpilot77 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:15 am

Pratt X 3 wrote:Thanks for the explanation, could have been nicer without the passive aggressive tones, but good nonetheless. I think there is an understanding by all users on the need for the delays but it really comes down to the execution. Once again, the GTAA's method of governance is lacking and chaotic. The slots introduced for General/Business Aviation users would be fine if they actually had any link to NavCanada's slots. Fact is, NavCanada doesn't acknowledge the GTAA slots and even some of the NavCanada employees don't know about the GTAA's slot program at YYZ. It is sad that one wishes for a system that was more like the heavy bureaucratic style of the European system where your airport slot is paired with your departure slot as well as you en-route slot and so on. One call to change them all.

I agree with this...and don't forget the overnight after hours 0030-0630 slot which also is separate from the rest.

Securitas, I don't put any of the blame for this chaos on the controllers...far from it actually. I'm sorry if my posts come across that way.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#57 Post by securitas » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:29 am

It is intended as sarcastic humour, not passive aggressive but regardless, I'm happy to explain.

Anybody can look up their GDP time at the link below, but keep in mind, it doesn't apply to the apreq delays which I mentioned earlier.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/edct/jsp/edctLookUp.jsp

You can find FAA GDP info here
https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/

You can find Canadian ATC system status info here
https://extranetapps.navcanada.ca/ois/ois.aspx

I can't comment on the GTAA slot reservations or their ban of GA arrivals from 3-8pm. ATC's primary focus is managing the airspace and minimizing the delay for all users. The less delay, the easier my day, so believe me when I say I'm on your side.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#58 Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:35 am

Fact is that GTAA has a hate-on for anything 'non-airline' at CYYZ, and have for a long time.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#59 Post by Speed_Bird1 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:49 pm

Wow easy tiger!

Thank you for the explanation Securitas, although I'm not convinced you were going for sarcasm. My comment was not an attack on ATC, mearly an observation, hence why I put "it seems" in my comments. I'm glad you explained how it all works. Now I can explain to my little VIP why his shiny toy isn't allowed to move.

I think my waistline might come under some pressure though.......ah the corporate life, hurry up and wait!

Your Snowflake

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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#60 Post by whatsitdoingnow » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:06 pm

Just tell your boss you need to smack him in the face so you can be a medevac :smt040
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#61 Post by mountainking3 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:14 am

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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#62 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:59 pm

Good on em. Pearson is basically begging customers to leave. Hamilton, Kitchener, Buttonville, Oshawa can all capatilize on this. Maybe Downsview should open up for some corporate operations. Be a good chance for Bombardier to show off their biz jets too.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#63 Post by rippey » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:42 am

goingnowherefast wrote:Good on em. Pearson is basically begging customers to leave. Hamilton, Kitchener, Buttonville, Oshawa can all capatilize on this. Maybe Downsview should open up for some corporate operations. Be a good chance for Bombardier to show off their biz jets too.
Downsview would be ideal, the problem lies in the fact that it's right under the approaches for the 24s. I can't remember the in trail atc needs to leave between arrivals to squeeze a yzd in or out but it's pretty big. I know TEB operates underneath the EWR arrivals, but I think YZD is about three miles closer to YYZ than the TEB scenario. I live out the west side so if my owner wanted to move to ykf or yhm I'd be more than happy to not spend over an hour on the 401 trying to get through Milton!
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#64 Post by mountainking3 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:13 am

And as marketed: They have a fleet of executive/turbine helicopters (AgustaWestland 119 & 109’s) which can provide further transport between YKF and the GTA, if required.
The YYZ slots don’t appear to affect helicopter traffic and the helicopters would also allow for easy access to other parts of the city or surrounding areas (YTZ, YKZ, YZD, Polson Pier, ect).
Although helicopters aren't the “cheapest” transportation service out there - with all the inconveniences caused by the new slots, I'm sure for execs and wealthy individuals who are already travelling on corporate aircraft, the additional cost for a 25 minute flight to get between YKF and the GTA is actually a fairly quick and convenient solution. (I’d bet on most days it takes at least an hour to drive from any of the main FBO’s at YYZ into the downtown core).
The cheaper option of using YKF vs. YYZ (fuel, hangar, ground services, landing fees, ect.) would help counteract the added costs of utilizing the helicopter service.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#65 Post by Married a Canadian » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:17 am

CYZD is only OK if you can go VFR.
IFR? You are either stopping departures (on the 06s) or trying to build an arrival hole (24s). 15s or 33s at YYZ there would be no impact.
If you were arriving at a peak arrival time at YYZ you might end up holding as long as you would if you had just been flying to YYZ. It is closer to YYZ than TEB is to EWR and consequently has a greater effect on operation if the weather limits do not allow VFR. I don't think the GA community would like the restrictions operating into here.

Interesting reading this discussion, as this has mostly come up due to the runway construction on 05/23. Securitas has covered most things from the ATC side. It has not been easy over the last month, believe me!
Both the airlines and corporate have chanced their arm on a couple of occasions...for example

Filing for CYKZ....getting airborne and then changing to YYZ. Got the same one hour hold they would have had if they had just waited

or

Accepting the stub operation on 23 (while it is open)...getting airborne and then saying you won't take it. Not going to help matters....and makes flow control more difficult.

In fairness the weather REALLY has not helped over the last few days....the best arrival and departure rates have come from the good weather days (and not pop up thunderstorms). We landed 06R and visual offloads onto 15R last week and ran about 48 planes an hour. Departures were off 06L using "visuals"....and things kept moving pretty well.
The GTAA and Nav Canada have been pretty hamstrung with what we have been able to do because the weather has been so bad.
I can't comment on the GTAA slot reservations or their ban of GA arrivals from 3-8pm. ATC's primary focus is managing the airspace and minimizing the delay for all users. The less delay, the easier my day, so believe me when I say I'm on your side
Seconded!!! Our shift times have been amended during the runway construction, last week we still had the second arrival position open at 1am in the morning.....I am sympathetic...but there are a lot of parties and factors involved in this whole process.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#66 Post by TrustinThrust » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:40 am

Had a flow delay of 2:30 the other day trying to fly BWI-YYZ. Ended up going into Hamilton instead. Once we landed, I called Flow to see if anything could be done about the delay and was told that if we accept landing on 23, with 6000ish feet, then we can depart anytime. Winds out of the west, runway was dry and the landing numbers were less than 5500, so we did it. Just wish I had known this sooner - would have elected to go straight from to YYZ earlier. Perhaps my fault for not called the TMU earlier.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#67 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:42 am

That's good to know, I'll keep that in mind for our next trip.

Our jet is good for anything longer than 4500' - inside that the boss gets nervous.

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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#68 Post by rippey » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:13 am

When did the shortened 23 ops become available, and will that continue?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#69 Post by Pratt X 3 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:27 am

This NOTAM (1 previous version, I believe) has been active since they started work on the runway:
170350 CYYZ TORONTO/LESTER B.PEARSON INTL
CYYZ FIRST 4667 FT RWY 05 CLSD DUE CONST. THR 05 RELOCATED 4667 FT.
THR 23 DISPLACED 200 FT BEYOND PUB DTHR
DUE OBST 1100 FT NE PUB DTHR 23, 38 FT AGL 592 MSL.
ORANGE MARKERS AND WING BAR LGT EITHER SIDE OF RWY.
LDG RWY 05 NOT AUTH. TKOF RWY 05 AUTH FM INT TWY H2 TO ACFT WITH
WINGSPAN 118 FT OR SMALLER ONLY.
ACFT REQUIRING TKOF RWY 23 FM TWY Q MUST NOTIFY GROUND CTL
UPON INITIAL CTC. DECLARED DIST:
RWY 05: TORA 6108 TODA 6768 ASDA 6108 LDA NOT USABLE
RWY 23: TORA 6453 TODA 6453 ASDA 6453 LDA 5968
APR 051800-0401
APR 06-23 1000-0401
1703301000 TIL 1704240401
Occasionally, there will be something like this will be part of the GDP message on the OIS (https://extranetapps.navcanada.ca/ois/ois.aspx) website:
EVENT TIME: 04/1500 - 05/0359
CONSTRAINED FACILITIES: CZY
CTL ELEMENT: CYYZ
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1401Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 04/1500Z - 05/0359Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 04/1500Z - 05/0359Z
PROGRAM RATE: 30
FLT INCL: CNDN AND CONTIGUOUS US JET DEP ONLY
DEP SCOPE: (2NDTIER) CZM CZU ZAU ZDC ZMP ZBW CZY ZOB ZID ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 373
AVERAGE DELAY: 119
IMPACTING CONDITION: RWY-TAXI / CONSTRUCTION
COMMENTS: THIS IS A JET ONLY PROGRAM. ALL PROP/TURBOPROP AIRCRAFT
ARE EXPECTED TO ACCEPT RUNWAY 23. IF UNABLE, USERS SHOULD CALL
TMU EAST FOR A NEW EDCT OR THE AVERAGE DELAY WILL BE APPLIED TO THE
FLIGHT IN THE AIR. FOR ANY JETS THAT CAN ACCEPT RWY 23, CALL TMU
EAST AT 1-800-268-4831 FOR AN EXEMPTION TO YOUR EDCT.
Problem is the runway configuration in use due to weather/traffic won't allow 23 to be used (no intersecting runway operation) or possibly not enough staff qualified to run 3 runways (23 & 24L/R). Someone from the Tower could probably explain it better.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#70 Post by Married a Canadian » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:52 am

Remember also that there is no ILS approach on 23 either...so to run the "stub" operation as we call it, not only does your aircraft type play a role, you have to accept a visual or an RNAV approach.

We are not allowed in the TCU to run RNAV approaches along side each other (with traffic on the parallel), so there will be no ILS monitor which means we have to run a staggered approach. You also factor in WHERE the aircraft are coming from (it is not easy to do cross overs in the arrival area so we try to keep traffic from the south on 24R/L if possible). The flow rate will still be reduced whether or not we are operating on the "3" runways because we can't get the aircraft their respective approaches as easily as before. There are a LOT more heavies operating in and out now (Rouge 767s spring to mind)...so that also plays a factor.

05/23 closes FULLY I think at the end of the month or early May (can't remember the exact date)....so this operation won't be available then.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#71 Post by fish4life » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:37 pm

I'm curious why 2 RNAVS can't be run on the parallels? Is there any change in the works with the LPV capability of aircraft coming ? 2 LPV's in parallel should be as accurate as 2 ILS's, the aircraft I fly is more accurate doing an LPV than a ILS.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#72 Post by target » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:38 am

It's noon and I'm heading back to YYZ this PM, flight aware says at present 2+10 ground hold in effect, could make for a long day!
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#73 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:30 pm

target wrote:It's noon and I'm heading back to YYZ this PM, flight aware says at present 2+10 ground hold in effect, could make for a long day!
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
Did you end up with a delay?
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#74 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:03 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
target wrote:It's noon and I'm heading back to YYZ this PM, flight aware says at present 2+10 ground hold in effect, could make for a long day!
Regards helo's from out side the city, pprune had threads concerning helicopter traffic in and around London and how the local population was starting to complain, could the GTAA be next.
Oh and aren't 2 new FBO's suppose to breaking ground soon at YYZ, investors must be having second thoughts?
Did you end up with a delay?
I think we know the answer to this. What a mess.
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Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#75 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:48 am

I have heard that the work on 23 will be done by May 16 and there won't be further work in the fall...but apparently the slots will continue!
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