Air Canada / Rouge
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
ACPA is in a self-renewing 10 year pilot contract. The matter of pilot pay CANNOT be included in items submitted for arbitration. Regardless, there is a requirement of cost neutrality as a mandatory principle in the terms of reference for the arbitrator.
However, these restrictions do not preclude ACPA from bringing up the subject of pay in any open interest based discussions with AC. And given that Scope is a non-arbitral section of the contract - any ask by AC to amend or breach existing scope limitations could logically be met with a response from ACPA that raw pilot pay rates and rate of increase be discussed.
Quid pro quo.
However, these restrictions do not preclude ACPA from bringing up the subject of pay in any open interest based discussions with AC. And given that Scope is a non-arbitral section of the contract - any ask by AC to amend or breach existing scope limitations could logically be met with a response from ACPA that raw pilot pay rates and rate of increase be discussed.
Quid pro quo.
- Jean-Pierre
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Air Canada is deemed a essential service to the country. It has been decided that they cannot strike if they are unhappy with their contract right? If they don't like it they must vote with their feet and move to another company with better pay and condition.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Wrong.Jean-Pierre wrote:Air Canada is deemed a essential service to the country. It has been decided that they cannot strike if they are unhappy with their contract right? If they don't like it they must vote with their feet and move to another company with better pay and condition.
I wish we were deemed an essential service. Holding fast to arbitration would do better than we have secured otherwise...
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
“Rouge is designed to do precisely what it was said could not be done,” Rovinescu said in his afternoon speech. “From the start, it has contributed significantly to our profitability.”
He credited Rouge for enabling Air Canada to maintain or expand leisure routes and enter new international markets in Europe, Asia and to sun destinations.
“It gave us flexibility to move in and out of markets to meet seasonal demand and allowed us to stay in the game in markets we were losing.”
Rouge’s first flights in 2013 were on four aircraft flying 14 routes. This summer Rovincescu said he expects the airline will operate 49 aircraft across a network of 93 routes, touching five continents. This includes two new routes out of Vancouver this summer: to Nagoya, Japan and London’s Gatwick Airport.
https://www.biv.com/article/2017/4/west ... ary-brand/
He credited Rouge for enabling Air Canada to maintain or expand leisure routes and enter new international markets in Europe, Asia and to sun destinations.
“It gave us flexibility to move in and out of markets to meet seasonal demand and allowed us to stay in the game in markets we were losing.”
Rouge’s first flights in 2013 were on four aircraft flying 14 routes. This summer Rovincescu said he expects the airline will operate 49 aircraft across a network of 93 routes, touching five continents. This includes two new routes out of Vancouver this summer: to Nagoya, Japan and London’s Gatwick Airport.
https://www.biv.com/article/2017/4/west ... ary-brand/
- Old fella
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Re: Air Canada / Rouge
AC has flexibility through Rouge, ok good for your airline. What about lowering the cost to consumers, any examples you can share, or was the introduction of Rouge used to lower wages and increase profitability. Nothing against AC generating profit mind you, it's needed to keep you folks employed and the airline running. As consumers we seem to think(right or wrong) these LCCs or ultraLCC are introduced to lower the cost of OUR travel. How many times are we gonna be indoctrinated with the acronym " no-frills" aka WJ new startup. FFS, tis no- frills now, you pay for everything short of the air you breath in- flight and taking a leak in the toilet. Sometimes I wish there was a wee bit of honesty from all sides, the providers and consumers of the airline services.rudder wrote:“Rouge is designed to do precisely what it was said could not be done,” Rovinescu said in his afternoon speech. “From the start, it has contributed significantly to our profitability.”
He credited Rouge for enabling Air Canada to maintain or expand leisure routes and enter new international markets in Europe, Asia and to sun destinations.
“It gave us flexibility to move in and out of markets to meet seasonal demand and allowed us to stay in the game in markets we were losing.”
Rouge’s first flights in 2013 were on four aircraft flying 14 routes. This summer Rovincescu said he expects the airline will operate 49 aircraft across a network of 93 routes, touching five continents. This includes two new routes out of Vancouver this summer: to Nagoya, Japan and London’s Gatwick Airport.
https://www.biv.com/article/2017/4/west ... ary-brand/
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Yep there's no difference in price when you book AC / Rouge, or WJ / Encore. Same fare shows up just the fine print tells you who's operating what.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
The financial figures show otherwise. In 2012 AC's revenue per passenger mile was 19.0 cents, last year it was 16.8.Old fella wrote: AC has flexibility through Rouge, ok good for your airline. What about lowering the cost to consumers, any examples you can share, or was the introduction of Rouge used to lower wages and increase profitability. Nothing against AC generating profit mind you, it's needed to keep you folks employed and the airline running. As consumers we seem to think(right or wrong) these LCCs or ultraLCC are introduced to lower the cost of OUR travel. How many times are we gonna be indoctrinated with the acronym " no-frills" aka WJ new startup. FFS, tis no- frills now, you pay for everything short of the air you breath in- flight and taking a leak in the toilet. Sometimes I wish there was a wee bit of honesty from all sides, the providers and consumers of the airline services.
2012 19.0
2013 19.1
2014 18.9
2015 18.0
2016 16.8
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Yes, make no mistake ......Rouge is supposed to be a low COST airline. ie cost to the company. It has NOTHING to do with the consumer. As far as I'm concerned, it's worse service for the same price. It is an attempt to increase profitability, pure and simple.sstaurus wrote:Yep there's no difference in price when you book AC / Rouge, or WJ / Encore. Same fare shows up just the fine print tells you who's operating what.
The term ULCC (as being used by WestJet) currently, I presume is all about price to the consumer. Maybe not.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Thing is, airfare is lower today than it was in years past, so Rouge matched what the market was already paying for airfare, it's that simple!
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Rouge and ULCC are two very different concepts.
ULCC (what WJ is proposing) is a high density unbundled product. For example, you may even be charged for a carry on bag. It is a low base fare and then plus, plus, plus for services that were previously included in the fare.
Rouge is simply AC with a different paint job, seat densification, and cheaper labour. The revenue side of the equation is not any different than has existed on traditional leisure routes. Higher trip revenue is generated by the extra seats. Profit comes largely from the reduced labour expense.
Let's say a Rouge crew (pilots/FA's) are a total of $150 per block hour less expensive than their mainline counterparts (this factors in pay, productivity, pension and benefits). With 49 aircraft operating an average of 14 hours per day the annualised labour cost savings is $37.5MM
This is why AC wants to increase the size of the Rouge fleet. It will be up to ACPA to decide if that is reasonable.
ULCC (what WJ is proposing) is a high density unbundled product. For example, you may even be charged for a carry on bag. It is a low base fare and then plus, plus, plus for services that were previously included in the fare.
Rouge is simply AC with a different paint job, seat densification, and cheaper labour. The revenue side of the equation is not any different than has existed on traditional leisure routes. Higher trip revenue is generated by the extra seats. Profit comes largely from the reduced labour expense.
Let's say a Rouge crew (pilots/FA's) are a total of $150 per block hour less expensive than their mainline counterparts (this factors in pay, productivity, pension and benefits). With 49 aircraft operating an average of 14 hours per day the annualised labour cost savings is $37.5MM
This is why AC wants to increase the size of the Rouge fleet. It will be up to ACPA to decide if that is reasonable.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
No other Canadian carrier flies YYZ-HAV other than seasonal(Transat) that I can find. Now with the US-Cuba opening from a year or so ago, yes you can find others like AA, DAL.....TheStig wrote:Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Prior to that, not so much.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
That's not my point. I'm a dedicated AC customer (million miler a long time ago).TheStig wrote:Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
Yeah, but how much have TOTAL revenue miles increased over the fleet over that time period? AC is flying longer sector lengths in 2017 v 2012. So total revenues are way up.TheStig wrote:The financial figures show otherwise. In 2012 AC's revenue per passenger mile was 19.0 cents, last year it was 16.8.Old fella wrote: AC has flexibility through Rouge, ok good for your airline. What about lowering the cost to consumers, any examples you can share, or was the introduction of Rouge used to lower wages and increase profitability. Nothing against AC generating profit mind you, it's needed to keep you folks employed and the airline running. As consumers we seem to think(right or wrong) these LCCs or ultraLCC are introduced to lower the cost of OUR travel. How many times are we gonna be indoctrinated with the acronym " no-frills" aka WJ new startup. FFS, tis no- frills now, you pay for everything short of the air you breath in- flight and taking a leak in the toilet. Sometimes I wish there was a wee bit of honesty from all sides, the providers and consumers of the airline services.
2012 19.0
2013 19.1
2014 18.9
2015 18.0
2016 16.8
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
I'm not sure what you're getting at? I agree that as stage length increases revenues per mile tend to decrease and AC's average stage length has increased. However, all that I was trying to show was that flying has gotten cheaper, and there is no better indicator than RPM, even if it is a rather simplistic measurement.
Re: Air Canada / Rouge
To me it would seem that WJ is launching an ULCC for the same reason AC launched an LCC, to fight the competition. WJ can see the looming start-up of a couple ULCC's in Canada and is looking to compete. We obviously don't know what routes this carrier will operate or how they intend to achieve any savings over WJ's current offering, but they seemed to have identified a market for 10 aircrafts worth of ULCC flying.ogopogo wrote:That's not my point. I'm a dedicated AC customer (million miler a long time ago).TheStig wrote:Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
When AC launched rouge they were loosing money and market share to WJ among other carriers in the leisure market, and decided that their options were either give up on certain routes or launch an LCC. Air Canada is a business, and yet your tone suggests there is something wrong with them trying to make money. Providing a service passengers weren't willing to pay for isn't a great long term plan.
Westjet hasn't given any indication they will launch any new routes with their ULCC, is it okay for them to transfer existing routes to their new service? Should they perhaps wait until a new entrant into the market establishes a foothold? Until they start loosing money on routes? Staying ahead of the competition seems like a smart business move, like rouge (and Tango and Zip) there must be some concern over cannibalizing your existing customers and brand confusion. Seems like you (and a lot of others) have a double standard for AC that doesn't exist for WJ
FAD3C
HAV-YYZ is operated by Cubana, YYZ-BOG is the only noncompetitive route (I believe). Interestingly, that routes transfer to rouge has resulted in an ACPA grievance, which is strange when you consider that the cargo let they've championed has allowed the airline to switch to the higher seat density...