Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

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pelmet
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by pelmet »

Hmmm...that's interesting that both powerplants seemed to be working fine.

I do remember both Cat and Doc relating stories of very poor flight characteristics in a DC-3 with contaminated wings(as in...scary situation with small amounts of contamination).

Kudos to the TSB for an update(AvCanada posts might just be starting to work).
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Cat Driver »

When I was a lot younger and beginning my learning curve flying for a living I had one of the scariest experiences of my life. I remember the year clearly, it was 1968.

We had overnighted at Great Whale River and in the morning we did the usual walk around of the DC3 and had noted a very slight film of frost on the top of the wings and tail plane.

The film of frost was so thin we both decided it was not going to be a problem especially as we were departing empty re positioning to Timmins.

It was my turn to fly and everything was normal until just after liftoff as we left ground effect the thing strarted to stall and drop a wing, I shoved the control forward and got it in ground effect again and it was controllable...just controllable... but still rolling from side to side.

Anyhow I stayed in ground effect down the runway and finally got enough airspeed to very, very slowly climb and thankfully we had Hudson Bay under us so we could stay low and finally burn off the frost coating.

Both of us had our eyes sticking out like a bull dogs nuts from fear as we struggled to keep it flying and never, ever, even thought about taking off with any contamination on the wings again, period.

It was one of Austin Airways DC3's and we flew them about 100 hours a month in those days and had become complacent.

Complacency can result in some bad outcomes and in our case it was only the fact the airplane was empty that saved us.

And that of course made all the nurses and teachers in that part of the north happy. :D
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by pelmet »

Cat Driver wrote:When I was a lot younger and beginning my learning curve flying for a living I had one of the scariest experiences of my life. I remember the year clearly, it was 1968.

We had overnighted at Great Whale River and in the morning we did the usual walk around of the DC3 and had noted a very slight film of frost on the top of the wings and tail plane.

The film of frost was so thin we both decided it was not going to be a problem especially as we were departing empty re positioning to Timmins.

It was my turn to fly and everything was normal until just after liftoff as we left ground effect the thing strarted to stall and drop a wing, I shoved the control forward and got it in ground effect again and it was controllable...just controllable... but still rolling from side to side.

Anyhow I stayed in ground effect down the runway and finally got enough airspeed to very, very slowly climb and thankfully we had Hudson Bay under us so we could stay low and finally burn off the frost coating.

Both of us had our eyes sticking out like a bull dogs nuts from fear as we struggled to keep it flying and never, ever, even thought about taking off with any contamination on the wings again, period.

It was one of Austin Airways DC3's and we flew them about 100 hours a month in those days and had become complacent.

Complacency can result in some bad outcomes and in our case it was only the fact the airplane was empty that saved us.

And that of course made all the nurses and teachers in that part of the north happy. :D
Thanks,

Your post seems to match the one on the old thread that I found, in fact it seems to perfectly match...
"Like Doc, I damn near died one evening taking off out of Great Whale River in a Douglas Racer we ( both of us noticed a very light film of frost forming on the wings as we finished fuelling, we decided that because we were taking off empty for a short ferry flight to Moosnee and said hell there is only a trace so lets go. ) Big mistake......

To this day I can remember the thing suddenly starting to buffet and roll left just as we got out of ground effect....we pitched the fuc.er nose down and recovered back in ground effect, had it started to depart controlled flight another hundred feet higher there are a lot of women that would have missed some fine uplifting pleasure."


There don't seem to be any recent posts from Doc but in that same thread he said...
......."I had one really close call with the DC-3. Just a little frost! My butt ate my seat! Had to have the bloody thing recovered!".
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

One of the most terrifying flights I ever had. We had covered the wings for the night in Hearst Ontario. Got freezing rain over night. Pulled off the covers and we could see a pattern left by the covers, but very smooth.
Empty airplane. Bags of power (sure dummy). So off we went. Rotate and shake. Pin the attitude, everything to the dashboard. VERY gentle turns. Feet on the peddles don't fail me now! Maintain 50 feet. Inch it around to final. Plop it on and do laundry.
The Racer is an absolute POS with ANYTHING on the wing.
Kudos TSB on this one. I'm not usually a fan.....but looking at the WX, methinks you nailed this one.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Jimmy2 »

Sort of makes you wonder why it was chosen as a cargo hauler in Northern Canada where proper deicing facilities, and hangars are few and far between.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by fish4life »

Because legally any aircraft has to be de-iced so it shouldn't matter.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Cat Driver »

Sort of makes you wonder why it was chosen as a cargo hauler in Northern Canada where proper deicing facilities, and hangars are few and far between.
It was chosen because the DC3 is such a good all around airplane and with turbines even better.

Deicing can be done anywhere but it is a bit more difficult doing it without proper deicing equipment.

We solved the problem by putting water proof wing and tail plane covers on them over night.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Jimmy2 »

What did you do for residual ice you picked en route?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by valleyboy »

I'm going to relay my own experience with DC-3's and wing contamination -- never had an issue except for ice beading on the underside of the trailing edge of an aileron along almost the whole length. It acted like a trim tab and it was 2 hands and full trim to control the aircraft, other than that and somewhere around 7000 hrs in both piston and turbine dc3 I will say it will carry and take off with frost(roped if a lot),freezing precip, light snow and any reasonable amount of rime ice with very little effect. Things that will get you though is wet snow and slush and close to freezing temperatures(possibly considered common sense). There has always been an air reg not to fly with contaminated wings and control surfaces but since Dryden for some reason they like to make people think it was a revelation. It wasn't. It was just the start of the major "dumbing down" of aviation. In the minds of many they believe that most pilots lack common sense and need rules for everything. I hope it's helping but if I hear one more "it's legal" when obviously it's not safe I will possibly go postal. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by NWONT »

Well said Vallyboy. I was going to refrain from commenting just to avoid the curled lip of the new guys, but,....I flew with a crusty old guy who knew the DC-3 very well. We worked without a hanger or any form of de-icing equipment except a rope and a broom. Flying with frost and ice was common place and usual. A few adjustments were made to critical speeds and pole handling techniques and the freight got moved. Now, children, don't attack your keyboard in disgust and indignation. I'm not interested in hearing it.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by goingnowherefast »

Some wings carry ice better than others. DeHavilland wings (Beaver, Otter) will carry a lot more ice than a Caravan before it becomes a problem.

Then there's the old "PR spray", done simply for show.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by anofly »

Well so now we have a few very experienced types that have indicated they got a "pretty good scare" flying with as little as the pattern the covers left on the wings, and a few folks saying that the Racer can fly with a quick sweep or rope trick.The issue now is that unless you have had the scare, and have come to the "wont do that again" realization, you apparently dont know it all. Young fellas ,flying a DC 3, should listen carefully to everything the experienced capts tell them.I think a few mins(hours?) sweeping is often in order.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Cat Driver »

I have a question.

If the top surface of a wing is contaminated by anything that causes the airflow to be disturbed enough to change the smooth flow to a burbled flow, what happens to the lift factor?
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by valleyboy »

I guess in an ideal world a clean wing is what everyone wants. The only choice I see when you are in the bumm f no where is to get creative, do what you can and know your aeroplane. The only way I see, if one wants everything pristine a 100% of the time, is to shut remote flying down all together. Can't do that trip to the ice because there is no support equipment and BTW we can't de-ice because it's against the law Environment says, how do we interpret the rules when it says snow is non-adhering. I have a sop be saying I can take off in those conditions yet we are taught the clean wing concept. Is it black or is it white -- revelation -- it's actually grey. What a surprise. Absolutely for the young guys to learn from their captains but unless you are prepared to actually make some decisions and do your own risk analysis my advise is to stay out of remote aviation and wait until a major or regional will hire you, problem solved, you are not required to think for yourself. :twisted:
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Cat Driver »

Yes, it is a grey area and common sense mixed with the experience to know what you are dealing with is the ideal answer.

Such as it snowed over night and it is forty below zero , will that snow blow off?

I flew for Austin Airways for a few thousand hours and we had a scheduled route from Timmins up to Cape Dorset in the Arctic Islands.

We used the DC3 and I do not recall any of our airplanes ever crashing due to wing contamination.1

However if you make the wrong decision and you end up crashing and they determine you took off with contaminated wings you are truly screwed and if someone is killed or injured you are really truly screwed.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by JL »

A brief answer to Cat's question. CL is reduced and Cd is increased; a double whammy.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by valleyboy »

Strange place to be having the same old discussion but a little thread drift is OK -- Ironically I have never in all my years of flying experienced control issues with an aircraft with what most consider contaminated wings or critical control services. Freezing precip, snow, and frost have never been an issue for me(personal experience). I clean the wing or at least inspect the wing and make my decision and it has worked for many years. My encounters have been from subtle contamination. The contamination that was hiding and not seem. Cessna 402C - picked up ice and yes there was buffet in the flair and landing. Removed all the ice, so I thought and almost lost it on take off. Next stop after a intensive search I found ice on the bottom of the wing(could barely see it), a 1/4 inch bead at the back of the boot which was left after knocking the ice off. The top of the wing was completely clean and the ice was located inside the between engines and fuselage,outboard was clean, so a little bead of ice maybe 2 feet long and less than a 1/4 inch high almost brought me out of the sky. I think that that area of the aircraft is overlooked too often. I have seen wing covers pulled off and 12 inches of snow between engines and fuselage and no one figures that needs to be cleared. Many years ago when I was getting checked out in a beech 18 I was instructed to hang my arm out the cockpit side window tight to the fuselage pointing down at the wing. It was dramatic. I thought the aircraft was going to fall out of the sky. So in a nut shell. I just might not be the contamination you see or if you do you dismiss it because there isn't much of it. I matters depending on location. When people gasp in horror when you launch with a little frost or rime ice this is likely not what is going to get you. It's the subtle contamination that will.
Contamination on the fuselage -- yup it will fly and not a "critical" surface but consider the impact if you pop one. It's OK to leave like that but is it any more dangerous than a trace of frost. I'm thinking it's worse since frost will wear off almost immediately but the ice and snow on the fuselage will spend most of the day with you. But it's legal -- :smt040
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Jimmy2 wrote:What did you do for residual ice you picked en route?
I just send the copilot out on the wing in deck shoes to scrape it off as it forms.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Eric Janson »

My DC-3 experience in ice/frost is similar to what was previously posted by valleyboy.

The company also operated the aircraft outside. We used to sweep the wings with a broom and we also had cloth wing covers.

The worst icing encounter I've ever had was in a DC-3 in freezing rain enroute.

On approach I kept the speed up and kept the power on and landed with the power on. After reducing the power and as the tail was coming down the control wheel was violently ripped out of my hand as one of the ailerons stalled.

After shutdown I had a look at the wing - there was ice accumulation on the aft side of most of the rivets! I've never seen that before or since.
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Re: Cargo North (North Star Air) Crashes DC3 in PickleLake

Post by Cat Driver »

My comments about wing contamination was directed at not cleaning hoar frost off the wing because we decided we were empty and could take off without cleaning the wings.

Like others here I have flown the DC3 and picked up frightening loads of ice in flight and obviously survived.

There is a big difference in loss of lift caused by wing contamination due to frost on the wings and tail plane and loss of lift built up by ice formation in flight.
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