Air Canada / Rouge

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#26 Post by sstaurus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:47 am

Yep there's no difference in price when you book AC / Rouge, or WJ / Encore. Same fare shows up just the fine print tells you who's operating what.
---------- ADS -----------

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#27 Post by TheStig » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:12 pm

Old fella wrote: AC has flexibility through Rouge, ok good for your airline. What about lowering the cost to consumers, any examples you can share, or was the introduction of Rouge used to lower wages and increase profitability. Nothing against AC generating profit mind you, it's needed to keep you folks employed and the airline running. As consumers we seem to think(right or wrong) these LCCs or ultraLCC are introduced to lower the cost of OUR travel. How many times are we gonna be indoctrinated with the acronym " no-frills" aka WJ new startup. FFS, tis no- frills now, you pay for everything short of the air you breath in- flight and taking a leak in the toilet. Sometimes I wish there was a wee bit of honesty from all sides, the providers and consumers of the airline services.
The financial figures show otherwise. In 2012 AC's revenue per passenger mile was 19.0 cents, last year it was 16.8.

2012 19.0
2013 19.1
2014 18.9
2015 18.0
2016 16.8
---------- ADS -----------

ogopogo
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:28 am

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#28 Post by ogopogo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:37 pm

sstaurus wrote:Yep there's no difference in price when you book AC / Rouge, or WJ / Encore. Same fare shows up just the fine print tells you who's operating what.
Yes, make no mistake ......Rouge is supposed to be a low COST airline. ie cost to the company. It has NOTHING to do with the consumer. As far as I'm concerned, it's worse service for the same price. It is an attempt to increase profitability, pure and simple.

The term ULCC (as being used by WestJet) currently, I presume is all about price to the consumer. Maybe not.
---------- ADS -----------

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1561
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#29 Post by mbav8r » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:49 pm

Thing is, airfare is lower today than it was in years past, so Rouge matched what the market was already paying for airfare, it's that simple!
---------- ADS -----------

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#30 Post by rudder » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:58 am

Rouge and ULCC are two very different concepts.

ULCC (what WJ is proposing) is a high density unbundled product. For example, you may even be charged for a carry on bag. It is a low base fare and then plus, plus, plus for services that were previously included in the fare.

Rouge is simply AC with a different paint job, seat densification, and cheaper labour. The revenue side of the equation is not any different than has existed on traditional leisure routes. Higher trip revenue is generated by the extra seats. Profit comes largely from the reduced labour expense.

Let's say a Rouge crew (pilots/FA's) are a total of $150 per block hour less expensive than their mainline counterparts (this factors in pay, productivity, pension and benefits). With 49 aircraft operating an average of 14 hours per day the annualised labour cost savings is $37.5MM

This is why AC wants to increase the size of the Rouge fleet. It will be up to ACPA to decide if that is reasonable.
---------- ADS -----------

ogopogo
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:28 am

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#31 Post by ogopogo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:07 am

I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
---------- ADS -----------

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#32 Post by TheStig » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:32 am

ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.
---------- ADS -----------

FAD3C
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:33 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#33 Post by FAD3C » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:34 pm

TheStig wrote:
ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.
No other Canadian carrier flies YYZ-HAV other than seasonal(Transat) that I can find. Now with the US-Cuba opening from a year or so ago, yes you can find others like AA, DAL.....
Prior to that, not so much.
---------- ADS -----------

ogopogo
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:28 am

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#34 Post by ogopogo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:50 pm

TheStig wrote:
ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.
That's not my point. I'm a dedicated AC customer (million miler a long time ago).
---------- ADS -----------

yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2573
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#35 Post by yycflyguy » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:04 am

TheStig wrote:
Old fella wrote: AC has flexibility through Rouge, ok good for your airline. What about lowering the cost to consumers, any examples you can share, or was the introduction of Rouge used to lower wages and increase profitability. Nothing against AC generating profit mind you, it's needed to keep you folks employed and the airline running. As consumers we seem to think(right or wrong) these LCCs or ultraLCC are introduced to lower the cost of OUR travel. How many times are we gonna be indoctrinated with the acronym " no-frills" aka WJ new startup. FFS, tis no- frills now, you pay for everything short of the air you breath in- flight and taking a leak in the toilet. Sometimes I wish there was a wee bit of honesty from all sides, the providers and consumers of the airline services.
The financial figures show otherwise. In 2012 AC's revenue per passenger mile was 19.0 cents, last year it was 16.8.

2012 19.0
2013 19.1
2014 18.9
2015 18.0
2016 16.8
Yeah, but how much have TOTAL revenue miles increased over the fleet over that time period? AC is flying longer sector lengths in 2017 v 2012. So total revenues are way up.
---------- ADS -----------

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#36 Post by TheStig » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:05 pm

I'm not sure what you're getting at? I agree that as stage length increases revenues per mile tend to decrease and AC's average stage length has increased. However, all that I was trying to show was that flying has gotten cheaper, and there is no better indicator than RPM, even if it is a rather simplistic measurement.
---------- ADS -----------

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada / Rouge

#37 Post by TheStig » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:14 pm

ogopogo wrote:
TheStig wrote:
ogopogo wrote:I completely agree with all of that, but in my opinion Rouge was spun to the public as a lower cost alternative. Where in fact, there is no alternative, especially in some holiday destinations.
Name one route where there is no choice between rouge and another airline.
That's not my point. I'm a dedicated AC customer (million miler a long time ago).
To me it would seem that WJ is launching an ULCC for the same reason AC launched an LCC, to fight the competition. WJ can see the looming start-up of a couple ULCC's in Canada and is looking to compete. We obviously don't know what routes this carrier will operate or how they intend to achieve any savings over WJ's current offering, but they seemed to have identified a market for 10 aircrafts worth of ULCC flying.

When AC launched rouge they were loosing money and market share to WJ among other carriers in the leisure market, and decided that their options were either give up on certain routes or launch an LCC. Air Canada is a business, and yet your tone suggests there is something wrong with them trying to make money. Providing a service passengers weren't willing to pay for isn't a great long term plan.

Westjet hasn't given any indication they will launch any new routes with their ULCC, is it okay for them to transfer existing routes to their new service? Should they perhaps wait until a new entrant into the market establishes a foothold? Until they start loosing money on routes? Staying ahead of the competition seems like a smart business move, like rouge (and Tango and Zip) there must be some concern over cannibalizing your existing customers and brand confusion. Seems like you (and a lot of others) have a double standard for AC that doesn't exist for WJ

FAD3C
HAV-YYZ is operated by Cubana, YYZ-BOG is the only noncompetitive route (I believe). Interestingly, that routes transfer to rouge has resulted in an ACPA grievance, which is strange when you consider that the cargo let they've championed has allowed the airline to switch to the higher seat density...
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”