New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

Discussion of topics related to corporate aviation throughout the world.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Message
Author
User avatar
CL-Skadoo!
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Intensity in Ten Cities.

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#76 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:58 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I have heard that the work on 23 will be done by May 16 and there won't be further work in the fall...but apparently the slots will continue!
Yup, we fell into line like good little airplane drivers and played their happy little game. Nothing like trying to call for a slot during a peewee hockey game.
---------- ADS -----------

target
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:00 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#77 Post by target » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:48 am

From last post, no I didn't delayed by slots, but that may be because we ended up flying another leg that had us arrive at 01:30.

Wonder when airlines are going start putting on pressure with the added costs, overtime, delays causing missed connections at one of the worlds most expensive airports to operates out of.

From what I've been told all this is coming from the GTAA, not Nav Canada.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#78 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:07 pm

So if you get a flow time while waiting to depart another airport for yyz, and you won't make your slot time due to the delay, what is the deal?
---------- ADS -----------

schnitzel2k3
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#79 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:41 pm

Pretty sure you are SOL.

S.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#80 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:14 pm

I would think you would at least have a good argument?
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#81 Post by cdnpilot77 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:44 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I would think you would at least have a good argument?

You'd think wrong...SOL if there's no slots available for your new EDCT coordinated arrival time
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#82 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:49 pm

Wow that blows! What is the punishment?
---------- ADS -----------

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#83 Post by fish4life » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:51 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I would think you would at least have a good argument?
What happens if you miss your reservation at an exclusive restaurant and they give away your table?
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
CL-Skadoo!
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 6:41 pm
Location: Intensity in Ten Cities.

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#84 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:21 pm

fish4life wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I would think you would at least have a good argument?
What happens if you miss your reservation at an exclusive restaurant and they give away your table?
I'm sorry, I just have to know, which exclusive restaurant do you most associate with YYZ?
---------- ADS -----------

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#85 Post by fish4life » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:25 pm

Haha Wendy's??
---------- ADS -----------

NovaBoy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:36 pm
Location: down east

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#86 Post by NovaBoy » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:42 am

CL-Skadoo! wrote:
fish4life wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I would think you would at least have a good argument?
What happens if you miss your reservation at an exclusive restaurant and they give away your table?
I'm sorry, I just have to know, which exclusive restaurant do you most associate with YYZ?
Pretty sure the only one is Arizona's
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#87 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:51 am

fish4life wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:I would think you would at least have a good argument?
What happens if you miss your reservation at an exclusive restaurant and they give away your table?
Not a good analogy. If I miss my reservation because my car breaks down that's my own problem, but if I miss my reservation because the restaurant locks the front door and won't let me in for an hour then I am gonna be pissed!
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#88 Post by cdnpilot77 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:22 am

The punishment for failure to comply with the slot system is undefined as far as I'm aware. The memo did indicate something to the effect of further restrictions for the operator. I'm sure they have scaleable punishment set up, but it hasn't been published, or at least we haven't seen it.

Another limitation we discovered is that the computer reservation system only seems to allow one arrival and one departure per airplane per day at any one time. So, if you need a second arrival or departure, you have to wait until the first one is complete and hope for the best when you call.

As far as I've seen on most week days, slots have been very tough to come by inside of 36hrs of your intended movement. Movements between 2200-0600 being the exception.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Pratt X 3
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:19 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#89 Post by Pratt X 3 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:38 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:So if you get a flow time while waiting to depart another airport for yyz, and you won't make your slot time due to the delay, what is the deal?
Want a chuckle? Call the Slot office and ask them this question. You might be surprised (and a bit relieved) to hear the answer. It seems to be the typical GTAA plot line; a "great" idea from HQ that someone got brownie points for but then dropped in the laps of those on the front line with little to no guidance.

"Hey, what if we had airport slots just like they do in Europe?"
"Sounds great! Any experience with implementing them?"
"No but how hard could it be? We just make a memo, give the slot office an extra sheet of paper each day and everything will fall into place! Now give me my bonus; do we have any leftover art pieces from the Terminal?"
"But what about the chaos this will create? Any plans on how to integrate with Nav Canada and the FAA?"
"Psshhh! We are the GTAA - the Greatest Toronto Airport Around! We don't need no integration! We answer to no-one!"
"Aww, Sir, that's not what it stands for."
"Well it does now. Give me another sculpture from the pile!"
---------- ADS -----------
Have Pratts - Will Travel

CrewSked
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:54 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#90 Post by CrewSked » Tue May 02, 2017 3:26 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:So if you get a flow time while waiting to depart another airport for yyz, and you won't make your slot time due to the delay, what is the deal?


Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to share an update here with those that are interested and either aren't members or don't get all the news from the CBAA.

**Johnny: see the comments below regarding the flow time and your slot.. Short answer: if you have a slot and get flow.. GTAA will let you come in when Nav Canada let's you go..


Hello Everyone,

I wanted to provide you with an update on the runway construction and slot status at Pearson.

Before I dive into the update, I wanted to share the members of your Technical Committee. Our goal has been to find a solution that represents the interests of business aviation operators. We're working hard to influence the GTAA and I want to extend my thanks to this committee for their ideas and time. So here they are;

Derek Reiners, Chief Pilot Central Region, SkyService
Jamieson Collins, Chief Pilot Ontario, Execaire
Robert Squires, VP Operations, Chartright
Anthony Norejko, President, Crewsked

To date, your Technical Committee has met twice with members of the GTAA and Nav Canada. We're working hard to get the facts and influence the outcome for our sector. **Our next meeting is scheduled for Thursday May 4th.

For your benefit here is a brief summary of the activities and ideas we've proposed.
1) 05/23 Runway Rehabilitation: You've already seen the amended construction schedule showing completion of the runway construction on or about May 16th 2017.
2) April 24th-May 16th: Full shutdown of 05/23. **We knew this would cause significant disruption to operations at Toronto Pearson. Principally this is due to the capacity constraints Nav Canada has for runway operations with 05/23 out.
3) Runway Construction Updates: The CBAA is participating on the Wednesday Construction planning phone calls to stay up to date on the schedule. **We'll share any relevant news if it impacts our operations any further.
4) New GTAA Directive: with the news of the construction schedule changes, we've asked the GTAA for an updated Directive. **We've asked to be part of the process to ensure there is no miscommunication.
5) ARO Process: Identified Operator Issues we've raised:
- Calling right at the 48hr mark and being told “no slots available".
GTAA: John was receptive and will educate their teams on proper process. Confirmed there shouldn’t be a situation which there are no slots for BA use when complying with the ARO directive.
- Calling and being told “sorry there are commercial flights that need those slots”
GTAA: This shouldn’t be the case, your arrivals are planned over and above the commercial movements for the hour. He’ll meet and educate the ARO team on slot applicability
- Operator Obtains ARO and Nav Canada issues a TMI **This is some good clarification for our members
GTAA: Agreed that operators with a valid ARO who are impacted by a Nav Canada TMI event will be able to land when Nav Canada permits their departure. *no need to obtain another slot in this scenario
- GTAA Request: Reminder to Operators that the ARO and night slot reservation process are separate. If your arrival falls between 0030-0630 you need to obtain a night slot and not an ARO.
- Nav Canada Operational Capacity Limits: Substantive discussion on Nav Canada's capacity in both IFR and VFR with all runways available. **this to better understand what the real capacity limits are for BA operations at the airport
- GTAA Discovery: through our last meeting we came to understand that the GTAA's plans are for 90 commercial movements/hr in 2020. However, they currently plan operations "as if" they're operating at 90 movements for terminal planning and operations. **this of course shouldn't be a governing limitation for BA operations as we don't interface with the infrastructure at the terminals.

Next Steps: **Meeting May 4th
- Review the GTAA's communication with their ARO office to ensure they're clear on the applicability and our access to the slots
- Fundamentally our position is:
There is no capacity constraints in 2017 (outside the runway rehabilitation)
* Using the Capacity Limitations provided by NavCanada, we now understand the controllers movement capability
* GTAA chooses to operate with a plan that targets 90 commercial arrivals/hr. We don't feel this number is relevant as our operators don't interface with the terminal.

We understand and share your frustration with the state we're in at Pearson. Know that your committee and the CBAA remain focused on finding a solution that reflects our operations.

Thank you,
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#91 Post by cdnpilot77 » Tue May 02, 2017 5:54 pm

CrewSked wrote:
JohnnyHotRocks wrote:So if you get a flow time while waiting to depart another airport for yyz, and you won't make your slot time due to the delay, what is the deal?


Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to share an update here with those that are interested and either aren't members or don't get all the news from the CBAA.

**Johnny: see the comments below regarding the flow time and your slot.. Short answer: if you have a slot and get flow.. GTAA will let you come in when Nav Canada let's you go..


Is this real and effective as of now or proposed?
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#92 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue May 02, 2017 6:40 pm

I got the same email. Looks legit right from GTAA
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#93 Post by cdnpilot77 » Fri May 05, 2017 2:46 am

CrewSked,

Can you provide insight to the result of the meetings yesterday with the GTAA?
---------- ADS -----------

CrewSked
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:54 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#94 Post by CrewSked » Mon May 08, 2017 9:16 am

Good Afternoon Everyone,

For your benefit and information, I wanted to share our meeting notes from the last Technical Committee meeting.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ytO ... sp=sharing

**Please note this document attempts to capture the conversational elements along with the solution we've put forth. In short, we believe the GTAA is looking to acquire accurate data on our operations. Our position is to be an active partner with the GTAA and Nav Canada to bring on that data behind the scenes. We've asked for the discontinuation of the ARO and SLOTS beyond May 16th 2017. **From the document you'll find the reasons we've put forth.

Thanks for your continued support,
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#95 Post by cdnpilot77 » Tue May 09, 2017 5:26 am

CrewSked,

We really appreciate the effort and attention you've given this and the info you've passed along.

Just some feedback to what the GTAA has been telling the group. From our perspective, things have actually been getting more difficult as we move along with this, rather than easing up. Slot times, for the most part, are still "sold out" 47h55m ahead of time with the exception of undesirable slot times. Our dispatch has been keeping logs for every time they call, with the length and the result of the call noted. It has literally been taking hours out of their days and often with no result. Our Dispatch productivity level has been severely compromised by this one single program, not to mention the difficulties we (and everyone else) faces on an operational level.

Again, thank you for fighting this ridiculous battle, I assure you we all appreciate it very much!
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 643
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#96 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon May 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Time to celebrate!!!!


General & Business Aviation Operators (GA/BA) wishing to arrive/ depart from Toronto Pearson International Airport (TPIA) will not require an arrival or departure slot during the normal operating hours (i.e. 0630-0029L) effective Wednesday May 17, 2017 at 1500L, until further notice. As such, the Airport Reservation Office (ARO) will temporarily close effective Monday May 15, 2017 at 1500L.

Please note that the temporary closure of the ARO does not affect the application of the Night Flight Restricted Program and the restricted hours (0030-0629L). Operators will continue to request permission to arrive and /or depart during these hours by contacting the GTAA at 416-776-3480 or 1-800-267-SLOT (7568).
---------- ADS -----------

skypirate88
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:46 am

Re: New yyz slots..this is gonna hurt!

#97 Post by skypirate88 » Tue May 16, 2017 5:39 am

Must mean the runway will be back in operation, which is good news for all the crews having to deal with the nonsense
---------- ADS -----------
A mile of road will take you a mile, but a mile of runway can take you anywhere

Post Reply

Return to “Corporate”