German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

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German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#1 Post by '97 Tercel » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:23 am

Wonder if this will start a trend...


German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Lufthansa aircraft in Frankfurt, Germany, on April 2, 2014. (Michael Probst / AP)


The Associated Press
Published Friday, April 28, 2017 9:57AM EDT

BERLIN -- Germany's aviation association says the country's airlines have decide to scrap rules requiring two people in the cockpit at the same time, implemented after a Germanwings pilot is believed to have crashed his own plane in France two years ago.
European Aviation Safety Agency had earlier repealed its two-person rule, introduced as an emergency measure following the 2015 crash that killed all 150 people aboard, but told airlines to perform "extensive risk assessments" of their own.
Aviation association BDL said Friday that German airlines had concluded the two-person regulation doesn't increase safety, and creates other security issues, like the "frequent and predictable opening of the cockpit door."
The airlines have implemented other measures in response to the crash, including ensuring pilots' access to psychological counselling and testing.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#2 Post by complexintentions » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:24 am

Apologies, I didn't see this thread, I put mine about the same topic in General.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#3 Post by Gino Under » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:28 am

Sure.
EASA won't mind re-certifying a bunch of current airline types such as the A320 and 37NG as one person flight decks. I'm sure A and B will jump all over it. Manuals are easily revised. Procedures easily rewritten.
This should be fun.

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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#4 Post by confusedalot » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:31 pm

:?:
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#5 Post by av8ts » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:04 pm

Gino Under wrote:Sure.
EASA won't mind re-certifying a bunch of current airline types such as the A320 and 37NG as one person flight decks. I'm sure A and B will jump all over it. Manuals are easily revised. Procedures easily rewritten.
This should be fun.

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Me thinks you misunderstood the post
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#6 Post by Gino Under » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:29 pm

av8ts

Yes. It appears as though I did misread it..
I just read Swiss comments and understand the issue.
Now, will other authorities come to their senses?

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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#7 Post by Kingairdriver » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:12 am

A regulator does not simply unjerk a knee.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#8 Post by Rockie » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:20 pm

Who here can tell us what the FA's job was to do when he/she are in the flight deck? I asked them many times over the last year and very few of them knew.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#9 Post by complexintentions » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:46 pm

They probably didn't know because they had no good reason to be there other than a knee-jerk reaction to a tragic event.
These analyses have concluded that the requirement of having two crew members in the cockpit at all times during a flight does not enhance safety, and actually introduces additional risks to daily operations in flight safety terms (such as the fact that the rule results in more and longer openings of the cockpit door).
Swiss Press Release
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#10 Post by Rockie » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:02 am

complexintentions wrote:They probably didn't know because they had no good reason to be there other than a knee-jerk reaction to a tragic event.
These analyses have concluded that the requirement of having two crew members in the cockpit at all times during a flight does not enhance safety, and actually introduces additional risks to daily operations in flight safety terms (such as the fact that the rule results in more and longer openings of the cockpit door).
Swiss Press Release
They don't know because nobody told them, or if they were told they weren't listening. Do you know what their job is?

Maybe you can also answer this while you're at it. Door opens, FA steps in - pilot steps out, door closes. Door opens, pilot steps in - FA steps out, door closes. All of which happens much faster than it took me to type it. How does that result in more and longer openings of the cockpit door?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#11 Post by Rockie » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:20 am

.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#12 Post by sanjet » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:31 am

Only on avcanada can you debate the process the opening and closing of a flight deck door.

This rule was useless, happy to see it disappear.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#13 Post by Rockie » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:36 am

sanjet wrote:Only on avcanada can you debate the process the opening and closing of a flight deck door.

This rule was useless, happy to see it disappear.
Do you know what the FA's job is with this rule? So far I've heard plenty of people complain about it, but no one who actually knows what they're supposed to do. In other words...uninformed opinion.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#14 Post by av8ts » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:52 am

The fa's job is to open the door for the pilot who is outside the cockpit if the pilot inside the cockpit goes postal. That's if the pilot doesn't kill her/ him first. Now if the Fa who is behind the pilot next to the axe goes postal well we'll need a new rule when that happens
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#15 Post by Rockie » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:28 am

av8ts wrote:That's if the pilot doesn't kill her/ him first.
It would be very strange if the only pilot left at the controls tried to get out of their seat for any reason. If they do, open the door.
av8ts wrote:Now if the Fa who is behind the pilot next to the axe goes postal well we'll need a new rule when that happens
Hasn't happened yet whereas the other thing has...several times. But if it ever does I guess we will need a new rule. Cross that bridge if we ever get to it along with the thousands of other "what ifs" an active imagination can come up with. By the way, if FA's are such a threat why do we let them in the FD at all? Why do we allow commuters? Why do AC pilots want family members up front who don't undergo any kind of screening period? Shouldn't the cockpit be off limits to everyone except operating pilots?
av8ts wrote:The fa's job is to open the door for the pilot who is outside the cockpit if the pilot inside the cockpit goes postal.
Correct. Pretty simple, and if you're the one stuck on the wrong side of the door you wouldn't be thinking it's a useless rule. I don't think any of the proven or suspected incidents had a pilot go "postal" though. Mental illness isn't that obvious or these incidents wouldn't have happened.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#16 Post by complexintentions » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:41 pm

And mental illness is what the new policies focus on, which is what they should have in the first place.

Prevention, rather than bandaids. How progressive. And obvious. (To some of us.)

Next.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#17 Post by Rockie » Mon May 01, 2017 4:56 am

complexintentions wrote:And mental illness is what the new policies focus on, which is what they should have in the first place.

Prevention, rather than bandaids. How progressive. And obvious. (To some of us.)

Next.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly. However show me a mental health strategy that is 100% effective 100% of the time for screening any group never mind pilots. They couldn't even do it right for one person in arguably the most important single job in the world.

Forget alcohol testing, what's required here is a mental health check up every flight by a mental health expert that can't be fooled by dishonest answers to a few obvious questions. Looking forward to hearing the plan for that.

Absent a foolproof way of ensuring every pilot is mentally healthy before (and during) every flight, common sense dictates some other simple, 100% effective, zero cost method of accessing the flight deck as a back up.

Do you have a suggestion for that Complex?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#18 Post by mbav8r » Mon May 01, 2017 7:00 am

While I'm blowing into the tube, hook me up to a polygraph and ask a few questions about my desire to live or not. Simple really, you can have a database for each and every pilot who has answered control questions, then a quick input of employee number a few questions compared to previously answered control questions and voila, I'm sober and want to live or not. The computer can even notify Crewsked to call in replacement pilots after its done assessing me. Have one of these at each airport, heck lets just put this into the purview of airport screeners, this way the public can watch and be satisfied that their operating crew are mentally fit and sober.
Also, just in case something changes after I've checked in, have an FA replace me while I go pee pee
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#19 Post by Rockie » Mon May 01, 2017 7:08 am

mbav8r wrote:Also, just in case something changes after I've checked in, have an FA replace me while I go pee pee
One of the questions should be "Does your ego and professional pride feel threatened by a flight attendant standing in the flight deck?"
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#20 Post by mbav8r » Mon May 01, 2017 10:25 am

It's not clear how I presented that, I'm not opposed to it, in fact I support it even if the rule changes. I will still ask an FA to come keep me or my partner company. Besides enhancement to safety it gives you a chance to get to know the people you work with.
It was supposed to be sarcastic.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#21 Post by 3down&loct » Mon May 01, 2017 4:35 pm

Biggest concern I have of the 2 person rule is the predictability.
Pretty dam obvious now when the pilot will be coming out (FA takes position to block) making it that much easier to storm the cockpit with a choreographed sequence which has been practiced over and over.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#22 Post by Rockie » Mon May 01, 2017 5:02 pm

3down&loct wrote:Biggest concern I have of the 2 person rule is the predictability.
Pretty dam obvious now when the pilot will be coming out (FA takes position to block) making it that much easier to storm the cockpit with a choreographed sequence which has been practiced over and over.
It's also pretty damn obvious the door's going to open when there's a pilot standing there on the outside trying to get in. Not only that, but anyone with trouble on their mind gets a convenient 2 minute warning when the pilot comes out. I don't know how to avoid that, but there's always closing the curtain and blocking the galley with a cart.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#23 Post by 3down&loct » Mon May 01, 2017 5:47 pm

Rookie,
Our procedures used to require a blocker before re-entering the cockpit (not sure about yours). However, before coming out, there was no indication that you were coming out. You simply observed through the peep hole to ensure the area was free and then quickly left, and thereby the predictability was essentially non existent.
It seems many aviation authorities out there are starting to agree.
Do you feel the new procedure is better?
Curious.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#24 Post by Rockie » Mon May 01, 2017 6:02 pm

3down&loct wrote:Rookie,
Our procedures used to require a blocker before re-entering the cockpit (not sure about yours). However, before coming out, there was no indication that you were coming out. You simply observed through the peep hole to ensure the area was free and then quickly left, and thereby the predictability was essentially non existent.
It seems many aviation authorities out there are starting to agree.
Do you feel the new procedure is better?
Curious.
Yes I do. It prevents a pilot from being deliberately locked out of the FD.

If a blocker is effective when the pilot goes back in - even having given any threat a 2 minute warning - why wouldn't it be when the pilot comes out?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

#25 Post by FADEC » Mon May 01, 2017 6:56 pm

One of the dumbest things is having a washroom right outside the cockpit door; as on the 777, and not putting another secure door outside that washroom.

Why are pax ever in that area?

I absolutely agree that pilots leaving/entering the flight deck should be unpredictable; not as a choreographed event as per the "regulatios" made by those with no practical experience in the business.

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