German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

No Jack, explain why you think FA's in the cockpit are a threat. Then explain why they weren't prior to 13 months ago, and won't be in June.

As for your somewhat conceited rant about pilots vs. flight attendants, what qualifications do you need to sit in the jump seat?
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Scrapping that illogical requirement to have an F/A in the flight deck is a good thing.

What it boils down to is this: Do you trust a pilot more than an F/A?

I'd be far more likely to trust a pilot who has went through the career scrutiny to be at the controls of an aircraft, than an F/A who may have just walked off the street and went through a 6 week course.

The Germans showed leadership and courage by taking this recent course of action. I commend them.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

So...you think flight attendants are a threat and should never be permitted in the flight deck then?

And what does the length of their course have to do with it? They are RAIC holders who have undergone security screening and are members of your crew entrusted with all kinds of things including YOUR safety if there's a fire in the cabin or a real threat to the cockpit. It's also likely that person has spent entire flights sitting right behind the pilots in the jump seat commuting or travelling on passes, and will still in the future, yet now all of a sudden they're a threat for the two minutes it takes you to go to the bathroom?

Really?

Explain why you think the rule is illogical.
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote:So...you think flight attendants are a threat and should never be permitted in the flight deck then?
:lol: Nice try. I suggest that you don't try to put words in my mouth.

All things taken into account, I trust a pilot more than I do an F/A. Don't get me wrong. I harbour no ill will against F/A's, however on a scale of who do I trust more, I'd choose a pilot.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

I was asking you, not putting words in your mouth. Feel free to answer the question. Also it's got nothing to do with who you trust more, it's a safety measure that's all. Explain what's illogical about it.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Jack Klumpus »

Rockie, this isn't going anywhere with you. You don't seem to answer anything that I say.

Tell me then. Why you you think lufthansa did this?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote:Also it's got nothing to do with who you trust more, ......
Actually, it has everything to do with who you trust more. That's the crux of the issue. :goodman:
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

I think LH is doing away with the rule because they're offended by it, just like you and many other pilots. You still haven't told me why the rule is illogical, and I suspect you don't know why the FA is up there to begin with. Again, just like most FA's and pilots who are against it.

There are carriers keeping the rule, so I'm guessing their pilots egos aren't as fragile.
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Dockjock
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

Glad it's gone. The baseline assumtion for an airline pilot is that he/she is sane. Has to be. Ergo, the policy is stupid. Who can forget that it was implemented on what, two days notice? As a reaction to an incident yet to be investigated where the wreckage hadn't even cooled off yet. It's just not nessessary. That some airlines are keeping it doesn't make it valid. Lots of airlines have policies that are, how to put this, less than sensical.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Dockjock wrote:Glad it's gone. The baseline assumtion for an airline pilot is that he/she is sane. Has to be.
You can guarantee that?
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

Nothing is guaranteed. Don't be a pedant. Life is a series of probabilities.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Glad you realize it's not guaranteed. Speaking of probabilities there are literally hundreds of abnormal ECAM and QRH procedures that I don't expect to ever see in the course of my long career, yet they exist. Given the certain and suspected cases of pilot suicide after locking the other pilot out why does this procedure get people's panties so twisted? It's just a harmless procedure, and even if you think it's pointless that doesn't explain the level of animosity towards it.

You're offended by it. Just admit it.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

I readily admit that. I am professionally offended by the implication that, when the other pilot goes to the toilet, I will commit murder/suicide. It is deeply, deeply offensive more so because the policy isn't grounded in any kind of reasonable risk probability. Why do we have an MEL? Why do we only have two engines? Why aren't all pilots required to sleep at the airport the day before their duty so that startup OTP isn't contingent on highway traffic or driving conditions? Why give police guns? What if they shoot somebody? What if they're crazy themselves? Who will police the police?!

My point is that the probability of that particular risk is too low to make the hassle, insult, and increase in other risk factors worthwhile to keep the policy.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Finally someone who's honest about it at least.
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

Not sure what you've proven but you sure seem satisfied.
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Impact
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Impact »

Rockie wrote: It's just a harmless procedure, .....
Actually, it's not. As others have said numerous times, it's introducing another (more significant?) threat into the flight deck.

The Germans have come to the conclusion of exactly that. Hopefully other regulatory bodies will follow suit.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Dockjock wrote:Not sure what you've proven but you sure seem satisfied.
I'm happy that someone finally admitted they want a safety precaution eliminated because their feelings are hurt, not veiling it behind a false safety argument. Like this:
Impact wrote:Actually, it's not. As others have said numerous times, it's introducing another (more significant?) threat into the flight deck.

The Germans have come to the conclusion of exactly that. Hopefully other regulatory bodies will follow suit.
Door opens - FA steps in, pilot steps out - door closes.
Door opens - pilot steps in, FA steps out - door closes.

Please explain how this increases risk. If you think it does I presume you will also refrain from ordering coffee or a meal as the door opening for that also increases risk. Presumably you will refuse all requests for jump seaters as a result of the increased risk as well. Door remains closed with only operating pilots permitted access to the F/D...period.

If pilots don't agree to that it betrays the safety argument for what it is, a smoke screen.
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Dockjock
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Dockjock »

The idea that I can't be unsupervised in the cockpit of the airplane of which I am in command is offensive. Ditto for the second in command. Don't make it sound like I'm sad about it, incredulous is more like it. I don't subscribe to the idea that the flight attendant themself is a threat, we have FAs up front for dozens of other reasons on the regular with no problem. The problem is, the procedure is guarding against an event so unlikely, so deep down a hole of other failed checks and balances (an undiagnosed suicidal murderous pilot, or diagnosed as paranoid and unreported) AND it introduces other perhaps more significant threats in the process that, on balance, the net effect on safety and security is negative.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Jack Klumpus »

Impact wrote:
Rockie wrote:Also it's got nothing to do with who you trust more, ......
Actually, it has everything to do with who you trust more. That's the crux of the issue. :goodman:
It has everything to do with who you trust!

Rockie, you really do a great job of making a fool out of yourself. Go through the whole convo, see if just once I stated my opinion. I did not. Look at your last post directed to me. You tell me what my opinion is? Really, only a fool would do that. This proves that you don't read my posts, you make the scenario in your head, and you believe it.

For this reason, I won't go any further with discussing this with you.

One day you will learn why they did this, and you will see that I gave you so many hints, but due to your pre determined thoughts, you couldn't see them. It's a real shame. As pilots, it's extremely dangerous for us to have a pre determined or pre conceived thought about something, basing that notion on a "made up" reason that we created. Evidence based practice my friend. Look up the meaning. It's your friend.
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Rockie
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Re: German airlines to scrap requirement for 2 people in cockpit

Post by Rockie »

Yes Jack, go back and read the thread. I asked you for your opinion on why FA's are a threat which you still haven't answered, and I still don't know. It was a question, not a statement.
Dockjock wrote:The idea that I can't be unsupervised in the cockpit of the airplane of which I am in command is offensive. Ditto for the second in command. Don't make it sound like I'm sad about it, incredulous is more like it. I don't subscribe to the idea that the flight attendant themself is a threat, we have FAs up front for dozens of other reasons on the regular with no problem. The problem is, the procedure is guarding against an event so unlikely, so deep down a hole of other failed checks and balances (an undiagnosed suicidal murderous pilot, or diagnosed as paranoid and unreported) AND it introduces other perhaps more significant threats in the process that, on balance, the net effect on safety and security is negative.
Yes I know for you it's a personal insult. I am acknowledging that and congratulating you for your honesty. It would be nice if everybody was as honest in their reasons then we could dispense with this silly argument FA's are a threat. Then we could start addressing the silly argument that you aren't trusted to fly the airplane safely.
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