Westjet goes ALPA

[anofly]

It is entirely up to both Westjet, and ALPA to decide what goes in the collective agreement and what does not. Pay will certainly be part of it.
Westjet has already cut way back on the jokes, got rid of the plaid shirts, got rid of leather jackets, stopped playing bowling in the aisle etc.
Infrequent flyers liked or loved the jokes, bowling, humour, plaid shirts. ,The more "experienced travellers" got tired of the jokes etc and just wanted to get back to the globe and mail. WJ is long past the "little guy" start up trying hard to be different.
Heck they even charge for baggage, and my skiis, and those they forgave those for years.
My point is WJ has already changed, and once the cabin types unionize, it will be jurisdictional problems if" those darn pilots start stealing our jobs by doing up seatbelts" .They might all agree that all hands on deck for cabin cleanup is a good idea, and it is, the quicker you turn the more time you get paid for moving... and you "work" a shorter day for your money.

The union will probably really want rid of the companies flexibility to monkey with your schedule, as that can be more important than pay, as long as pay is in the ballpark. The union will want "promotion on seniority" as it should. it will also want a clear path for the regional types that toil away for the westjet brand for a few years, to get a crack at mainline before street hires, and it should!
the collective agreement will spell out what both sides agree to , and the union is there to make sure WJ follow it. Really both sides should follow what they agree to.
They dont "have " to bargain "all bidding at all times" for trips etc, they probably will want to .But they can do anything they like. They should bargain what the majority of the pilots "ask for " or want.
Unions also are very protective of members, but not all members need as much "service" so the marginal performers, folks that get sick often, substance issues, family issues , folks that have poor behavior or folks that harrass co workers, get most of the help, but the "dudley doright types" dont need as much help.
I look forward to hearing about the first contract.
I think southwest pilots are on the whole happy. The airline is profitable , and working for profits leaves money for both pilots and the company. If they stay a bit less costy than AC, there will be more union members needed in the long run, and a lot less members will be needed if they bankrupt the company....

[gianthammer]

Ha Ha .... take that scocalist suckers!!

[Canoehead]

Ha Ha .... take that scocalist suckers!!

How does being a member of a union make one a socialist?

[Rockie]

What many anti-unionists fail to realize is that workplace safety is largely thanks to the organized labour they hate so much. So are their wages and other working conditions even if they happen to work for a non-union company.

So...you're welcome.

[Old fella]

Perhaps veering away from the topic a tad, but workplace safety was the overriding theme on the 25th anniversary of the sad Nova Scotia Westray coal mine disaster. The miners were in the process of getting certified........ long story but Google it if interested. It is a shocking account of terrible unsafe conditions that killed 26 mostly young miners. Yes, unions do play a role in promoting safe conditions.

[Meatservo]

I can only assume that a union became necessary in the opinions of the people who voted for it. I look at unionization as a necessary evil. I don't think anyone enjoys having some of their paycheque go towards union dues, this money could be used to buy beer. In the same way, I don't think anyone is cheered by the idea that we live in a society where people need to be protected from their own employers; where the company's best interests are incompatible with the best interest of the employees. The way I look at it, (maybe I am a bit of a socialist) a lot of negative things happen in the world as a result of the existence of corporations; we tolerate them because they fulfil a social function: they provide us with employment. They are our customers. Therefore it's socially destructive when corporations try to maximize their profits by eating away at the benefits they provide to their workforce. I deplore the circumstances that make unionization necessary, but I see that it is sometimes necessary.

Good luck to everyone at Westjet.

[godsrcrazy]

Wont be long and there will be no difference between flying on West Jet our Air Canada.

[Rupert_Pupkin]

Is Encore next or..........?

[johngalt]

Is Encore next or..........?

Yes,what does happen to all of those encore pilots who based their decision to go there on the hope of flow and holding their seniority on the one list?

Word is less qualified guys get to go straight to mainline and if you have dash time you go to encore.

Then there is that whole ULCC

[Rupert_Pupkin]

Is Encore next or..........?

Yes,what does happen to all of those encore pilots who based their decision to go there on the hope of flow and holding their seniority on the one list?

Word is less qualified guys get to go straight to mainline and if you have dash time you go to encore.

Then there is that whole ULCC

You would think that they would have to keep the flow or no one would really go there. I know a few buddies there that are working their bags off every month.I could see something happening like with AC and the express carriers with a carrot dangle of a "guaranteed interview" with a flow through to that ULCC. But I'm just talking out of my ass.

[Broker]

Now get BizAv pilots in a union and stop the race to the bottom the management companies take pride in.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Now get BizAv pilots in a union and stop the race to the bottom the management companies take pride in.

No thanks!

[SRV]

Awesome, ticket prices just doubled, as usual joe public gets to fund a windfall for the few...

[short bus]

Okay there.... Overreact much??

[Legacy]

Awesome, ticket prices just doubled, as usual joe public gets to fund a windfall for the few...

Yeah god forbid we have to pay $109 now for a 3 hour flight. Get over your entitlement dude

[leftoftrack]

So that 1 list idea is dead. No union in the world is going to allow a non union out of company new hire to jump the que over one of their long time due paying members. Sorry encore pilots your going to be BOTL if there is a flow

[.80@410]

Well then Encore will just have to unionize too. If they aren't preparing too already.
Whatever it takes to keep the list. The WJ pilots want to keep the list. And the company needs it to attract encore pilots . Can't imagine it will actually change when all 3 groups are pulling for it .
No, the sky isn't falling.

[Black_Tusk]

So that 1 list idea is dead. No union in the world is going to allow a non union out of company new hire to jump the que over one of their long time due paying members. Sorry encore pilots your going to be BOTL if there is a flow

All you have to do is go back to the 90's and look at the Jazz/AC "common employer" debate ALPA/ACPA issue and subsequent lawsuit. I am at the bottom of the list, with poor schedule and pay but I still think BOTL and seniority bidding is good. Why? Because I'm young now, and when I'm old I want my schedule to get better.

[teacher]

So that 1 list idea is dead. No union in the world is going to allow a non union out of company new hire to jump the que over one of their long time due paying members. Sorry encore pilots your going to be BOTL if there is a flow

All you have to do is go back to the 90's and look at the Jazz/AC "common employer" debate ALPA/ACPA issue and subsequent lawsuit. I am at the bottom of the list, with poor schedule and pay but I still think BOTL and seniority bidding is good. Why? Because I'm young now, and when I'm old I want my schedule to get better.

True but one side protested the deal. If everyone agrees I don't see it as being a problem.

[leftoftrack]

You think wj new hires want encore pilots above them on the list. The union represents wj pilots not encore pilots

[leftoftrack]

Whos paying the encore pilots dues that the wj pilots union is going to fight for them? Remember. Nothing is given, everything is negotiated.

[JBI]

Nothing is guaranteed with regard to flow and the one list from Encore at WJ with the new CBA. The company and ALPA will start the bargaining process for a new CBA. Of note, the WestJet pilots do not pay union dues until a new CBA is negotiated.

I do not agree that the one list is dead or that DOH will definitely be lost. It is not guaranteed, however, both ALPA and the company have generally indicated that they wish to keep it in place. A union and company can negotiate how they wish seniority to be considered. It is not a requirement that seniority HAS to start when someone starts with WJ mainline. This is regardless of whether Encore is ALPA with a separate bargaining unit, there is a successful single (common) employer application pursuant to s.35 or if Encore remains non-unionized.

There are also significant factual differences between the single (common) employer dispute between ACPA/CALPA in the 90s and the WJ/Encore situation of today. A single (common) employer application is a difficult burden to meet. However, a lot will depend on how the company approaches the negotiation process. The ULCC added in to the mix also creates some challenges.

So, while things are definitely uncertain at the moment and the state of the one list and DOH definitely COULD change, it is not a forgone conclusion that they will change.

Again, the caveat being that when I was a lawyer, I didn't practice labour law, but I've been doing my best to get up to speed on the state of the law.

[Rotten Apple #1]

JBI, ALPA has not said they want the One List to continue. What they have said is that the WJ pilots will decide. I don't agree with that sentiment, but that is what the OC said. They also said that there was no ALPA policy regard to DOH and seniority lists. Then, I found the copies of the policy on eBay, in the ALPA archives is Detroit, and in the ALPA password protected website that had a loophole I exploited for the two days or so I had access to it.

Either the ALPA OC members were negligent or something worse. There was a policy and there is a policy and that's what the OTS pilots will use to sue ALPA (Breach of Contract) should a non-DOH seniority list see the light of day.

If it did see the light of day, I wonder what the definition of seniority would be in section 22 (IIRC) of the ALPA CBA.

Cheers, from the land of potatoes.

[JBI]

RA#1

The ALPA OC has stated they support the one list with DOH, conditional on the jet pilots providing that mandate (as it has to be). More informally, the company has also indicated they support the one list with DOH. None of this of course is guaranteed and lots of ifs and buts over the next few weeks/months/years. I do not think that it is time for Encore pilots to panic.

While I respect your position and appreciate your posts, I respectfully disagree with your conclusions regarding the breach of contract - though you do make some valid points. While there may be some conflicting positions, my understanding of the process is that if the majority of jet pilots want the one list and DOH to be respected, that is something that needs to be worked towards and negotiated. It is not a promise at this time, but if the negotiating committee has a mandate, they need to work towards in good faith. From the company's point of view, it is my opinion that they need flow and DOH even more than the jet pilots.

There are numerous fact scenarios that could play out over the next little while that shows we're both wrong. Either way, at this point, arguing about it is moot. If I'm wrong I'll buy you a beer (though you'll never catch me jumping off a bridge).

I do agree with .80 @ 410 though, in that at this point in time your energy, intelligence and strategy is better used to figure out the best way to implement a ULCC that does not amount to a severe erosion of working conditions.

Enjoy your potatoes!

[Schooner69A]

From this and other threads, I get the impression that WestJet pilots voted on something without knowing exactly what the ramifications would be? F'r'instance: BOTL/DOH - should something like this be spelled out in advance of any vote? It seems like there is still much to be settled.

I was never really in a union environment, but had I to make the decision, I'd want to know exactly what I was getting into... "I's" dotted, "T's" crossed.

J