New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

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Married a Canadian
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Married a Canadian »

For once I am not going to post too much on a "public" forum, but I feel safe in saying that YYZ terminal really does NOT like this new phraseology and have MAJOR concerns about its implementation, rationale and overall effectiveness. We do not believe it has enhanced safety.
It has caused us unnecessary headaches!
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Driving Comet
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Driving Comet »

Grey_Wolf wrote:
daedalusx wrote:I also dislike the SID readback which now has to include altitude. As far as I'm concerned, SID readback should be the sid itself and transponder code, everything else is on the procedure unless obviously there is an ATC amendment.
Interesting series of flights today ...

We flew out of YUL, and got a PDC via ACARS. We acknowledged. Contacted Apron for the push and was advised to contact Clearance. Clearance wanted us to confirm the Trudo 2 and read back a SID altitude of 3000'. We then flew out of YTZ. Same scenario (PDC) but no altitude readback was required.

We asked Ground, why the difference? The answer, because YTZ includes altitudes in the PDC; pilots aren't required to read back an altitude. Acknowledging the PDC implies you'll conform to the SID and fly the altitude depicted on the chart. Since YUL doesn't include an altitude; Pilots are required to read back the SID and altitude assigned to them (which ironically is depicted on the chart).

Looking forward to the growing pains on this one :D
It's been an interesting week at YTZ tower.
New phraseology
New approaches
We can now depart IFR traffic with inbound traffic 2 miles or more away - was 4 miles before
Tower now responsible for initial IFR separation for missed approaches
New SIDs
Tower now responsible for initial departure separation (either 1, 3 or 4 miles) for IFR aircraft
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photofly
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by photofly »

Driving Comet wrote: Tower now responsible for initial departure separation (either 1, 3 or 4 miles) for IFR aircraft
Does that mean no more "waiting for radar release"?
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TrustinThrust
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by TrustinThrust »

Overheard coming in to YYZ the other day:

ATC: "Descend via STAR 11,000, altimeter xx.xx"

US Major: "Descend via STAR 11,000....uh, what STAR is that?'

ATC: "The one you're currently flying"


So much for "eliminating possible misinterpretation"
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Driving Comet
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Driving Comet »

photofly wrote:
Driving Comet wrote: Tower now responsible for initial departure separation (either 1, 3 or 4 miles) for IFR aircraft
Does that mean no more "waiting for radar release"?
I really wish that were the case. Long story short, terminal validates the IFR and depending on what heading the aircraft is released on, and wake turbulence category, we provide the miles. Good news is that when there's a line of IFR taxiing out and we can get validations for all of them instead of one at a time.
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skypirate88
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by skypirate88 »

I asked a YYZ controller the other day why we had to read back an altitude now after calling in a PDC, since the SID has a charted altitude published. Apparently, the SID altitudes are going to be removed, and the controllers will be able to give whatever climb limit they want/need.

I thought the whole point of PDC was to reduce radio calls, but now we need 2 more to achieve the same thing. It is going to be great trying to get a call in when the clearance guy/gal is also working ground.

YUL is also interesting. I used to be able to just acknowledge a PDC, and call apron for push. No call was required to clearance. Now I have to call them after I acknowledge it to get a climb limit on the SID I don't mind making a call, it really isn't any trouble, but it would seem we are moving backwards.

I find it amusing though, I can almost hear the annoyance of the controller's voice when they clear me VIA the STAR to another altitude for the 5th time.

I feel we will be seeing many memos over the next few weeks clarifying this whole new process.
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Last edited by skypirate88 on Wed May 03, 2017 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by av8ts »

You keep saying STAR. Do you mean SID?
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skypirate88
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by skypirate88 »

av8ts wrote:You keep saying STAR. Do you mean SID?
I sure did. I've made the changes.

Too many days on in a row it would seem.

Thanks
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URC
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by URC »

What a bunch of absolute nonsense this new "via SID/STAR" terminology is. I give it less than 3 months before they get rid of it. What idiotic brain trust in ICAO/Nav Canada came up with this crap ? They should ALL be fired !
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RexKrammer
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by RexKrammer »

Most likely it was somebody who has never worn a headset, and has no comprehension or appreciation of the implications this "improvement" would cause.
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ahramin
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by ahramin »

Actually, descend via star is an excellent addition to standard phraseology. The controller issues it, and you can descend when and how you want as long as you meet the star restrictions. Allows you to plan your descent and then fly it exactly as planned.

The NavCanada version where they issue you 5 separate descend via star instructions ... well let's be charitable and say they maybe didn't understand what the words via and star mean.
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Married a Canadian »

Actually, descend via star is an excellent addition to standard phraseology. The controller issues it, and you can descend when and how you want as long as you meet the star restrictions. Allows you to plan your descent and then fly it exactly as planned.

The NavCanada version where they issue you 5 separate descend via star instructions ... well let's be charitable and say they maybe didn't understand what the words via and star mean.
It would work if you are the only aircraft in the sky and you are flying on a closed STAR.
If you are number 8 in the sequence and are going to be vectored/sequenced on or off the STAR into the downwind (like YYZ), then kept at an altitude above the published restrictions due to running parallel approaches, all it does is create highly unnecessary RT clutter and confusion.

I shouldn't have to say it 5 times to one aircraft. I shouldn't have to reiterate an altitude to an aircraft who is level just because I have issued a vector.
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Married a Canadian »

SID/STAR phraseology was cancelled today...officially.
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by photofly »

What was the official reason given?
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Image
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Braun »

Married a Canadian wrote:SID/STAR phraseology was cancelled today...officially.
What? I'm at work and have not heard anything about this. I so hope this is true!
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ZBBYLW
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by ZBBYLW »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:Image
+1

Although I don't know for certain it seemed to me this was put together by desk jockeys at Nav Canada with the help of management pilots from my airline, trying to solve a problem that never existed. I do understand it was to more closely align with ICAO but any other jurisdiction I have flown through in Central America or the Caribbean (albeit simple airports) never issued it like that.

From a pilots perspective the way the US clears you to descend via the XXX arrival is indeed better and yes many of the arrivals do end on a DTW and are not closed up. The way the arrivals and sids intersect in YYZ is part of the problem so you basically protect the stars and sids and you could do it here... it might not be ICAO but it's much better it seems for both us and ATC.
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Married a Canadian »

From a pilots perspective the way the US clears you to descend via the XXX arrival is indeed better and yes many of the arrivals do end on a DTW and are not closed up. The way the arrivals and sids intersect in YYZ is part of the problem so you basically protect the stars and sids and you could do it here... it might not be ICAO but it's much better it seems for both us and ATC.

Exactly...and that was always part of the problem in YYZ.
Now we can debate all day about whether the way we run the planes in YYZ terminal is efficient...and what ways we can do it better....that is part and parcel of aviation...and part of discussion forums.

The problem we had was that this "generic" phraseology was not compatible with HOW terminal sequences aircraft. For a procedure to work it has to take into account ALL the sectors it will affect and how it will be interpreted. We do it differently to YVR to YYC to YUL etc etc.....each individual specialty had their own problems and unanswered questions with the change..that led to problems that were not there on April 26th.

I don't think management believed that such a "small" change would have such a large effect.
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ahramin
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by ahramin »

Possibly because (predictably) it took less than a week to risk a loss of separation?
An American corporately registered Embraer EMB-505 (N896LS) from Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson, ON (CYYZ) was instructed to descend via (STAR) and maintain 8 000 feet. The aircraft was observed descending below 8 000 feet and instructed to descend to 4 000 feet. An Air Transat Boeing 737-800 (TSC485) from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson, ON (CYYZ) to Montreal/Pierre Elliott Trudeau, QC (CYUL) and a Chartright Air Inc. Gulfstream 200 (HRT119) from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson, ON (CYYZ) to Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier, ON (CYOW), were in close proximity and separation was not assured. However, no loss of separation occurred.
I know I'm not as smart as the chiefs at NavCanada but if I could make a suggestion: If you don't want an aircraft to descend via star, don't use the words descend via star.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017O1216
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ahramin
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by ahramin »

Ladies, Gentlemen,

After discussion with Airlines, CATCA, Operational personnel, Safety and Quality and Senior Management, it has been decided to temporarily rescind all changes made on April 27th. This was not an easy decision. ATC and FSS across the country have given their utmost in trying to make this work but the continuing safety concern over altitude deviations and the unforeseen large increase in workload have brought about this decision.

Effective 0000z May 20th 2017, ATC clearances shall not include the phrase VIA SID/STAR.

The term VIA may be used in the routing segment of an IFR clearance. ATC will also not issue a climb altitude on an initial IFR departure clearance.

The following will be published in a NOTAM today and it is also a requirement on the ATIS for the following Airports: CYUL, CYYZ, CYYC, CYVR and any other airports where you may feel it is necessary.

On all STARS:
WHEN A LOWER ALTITUDE IS ISSUED, PILOTS SHALL DESCEND ON THE STAR PROFILE TO THE ATC ASSIGNED ALTITUDE.
CHARTED RESTRICTIONS ABOVE THE ASSIGNED ALTITUDE REMAIN MANDATORY.

NAV CANADA will follow-up in the coming weeks.

Thank you.
I don't understand how someone could implement this despite all the objections of the working controllers and pilots who had to actually deal with it, have their nose rubbed into how bad a decision it was, and then write something like the above acting as if it's still a good idea it just has a few unforeseen safety problems. How do these people retain credibility? I realize they won't sign their name to their decisions but surely most people involved know who these bright boys are no?
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