New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

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Braun
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by Braun »

ahramin wrote:Possibly because (predictably) it took less than a week to risk a loss of separation?
An American corporately registered Embraer EMB-505 (N896LS) from Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson, ON (CYYZ) was instructed to descend via (STAR) and maintain 8 000 feet. The aircraft was observed descending below 8 000 feet and instructed to descend to 4 000 feet. An Air Transat Boeing 737-800 (TSC485) from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson, ON (CYYZ) to Montreal/Pierre Elliott Trudeau, QC (CYUL) and a Chartright Air Inc. Gulfstream 200 (HRT119) from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson, ON (CYYZ) to Ottawa/MacDonald-Cartier, ON (CYOW), were in close proximity and separation was not assured. However, no loss of separation occurred.
I know I'm not as smart as the chiefs at NavCanada but if I could make a suggestion: If you don't want an aircraft to descend via star, don't use the words descend via star.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017O1216
Don't worry. We said this...multiple times. It's cancelled and gone for now.
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RexKrammer
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by RexKrammer »

Effective 0000z May 20th 2017, ATC clearances shall not include the phrase VIA SID/STAR.

The term VIA may be used in the routing segment of an IFR clearance. ATC will also not issue a climb altitude on an initial IFR departure clearance.
Interesting that you got this email. I just got one saying the procedure was now cancelled, but nothing regarding the cancellation of the mandate to issue an altitude in the initial IFR clearance. And I was in work today and nothing at all given in our mandatory briefings at sign-in.
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kevenv
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by kevenv »

RexKrammer wrote:
Effective 0000z May 20th 2017, ATC clearances shall not include the phrase VIA SID/STAR.

The term VIA may be used in the routing segment of an IFR clearance. ATC will also not issue a climb altitude on an initial IFR departure clearance.
Interesting that you got this email. I just got one saying the procedure was now cancelled, but nothing regarding the cancellation of the mandate to issue an altitude in the initial IFR clearance. And I was in work today and nothing at all given in our mandatory briefings at sign-in.
What it is referring to was the requirement to include an altitude when issuing a SID. This was rescinded along with the VIA SID/STAR. If you issue a departure clx that doesn't include a SID you still need to issue an altitude. That was what we received for direction here.
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pelmet
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So much for the climb/descend Via idea

Post by pelmet »

How about we just do it the same as the USA instead of ICAO. Maybe we should try Fahrenheit and miles again too.

"After discussion with stakeholders, it has been decided to temporarily rescind, effective 0000Z May 19th, all SID/STAR phraseology changes made on April 27th. Today’s move was made out of concern over altitude deviations we were seeing in the system and the unforeseen large increase in workload as a result. We are continuing to communicate with airlines, aircraft operators and our employees as we revert back to the phraseology rules that were in place prior to this change."
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thenoflyzone
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by thenoflyzone »

Grey_Wolf wrote:
daedalusx wrote:I also dislike the SID readback which now has to include altitude. As far as I'm concerned, SID readback should be the sid itself and transponder code, everything else is on the procedure unless obviously there is an ATC amendment.
Interesting series of flights today ...

We flew out of YUL, and got a PDC via ACARS. We acknowledged. Contacted Apron for the push and was advised to contact Clearance. Clearance wanted us to confirm the Trudo 2 and read back a SID altitude of 3000'. We then flew out of YTZ. Same scenario (PDC) but no altitude readback was required.

We asked Ground, why the difference? The answer, because YTZ includes altitudes in the PDC; pilots aren't required to read back an altitude. Acknowledging the PDC implies you'll conform to the SID and fly the altitude depicted on the chart. Since YUL doesn't include an altitude; Pilots are required to read back the SID and altitude assigned to them (which ironically is depicted on the chart).

Looking forward to the growing pains on this one :D
The Altitude info that the PDC sends is usually the cruise altitude.

There is no official parameter in which you can send an initial climb altitude with a PDC (which is stupid!). So a workaround (that apparently YTZ adopted) was to use the remarks field to send the initial climb altitude. I have no idea if this was legal or not with these new procedures.

Scroll down to see an example of a PDC with initial alt in remarks field here.

Here at YUL, readbacks of the altitude were required. We modified all PDC's to include "contact CLX" in the remarks field to make sure of it. If you didn't, your flight plan wasn't activated, meaning apron had no info on you, which is why they told you to call us back (Which you should have in the first place, as your PDC said so in the remarks field.)

I have no idea who approved the "no readback" scenario at YTZ.

As I just pointed out, not all pilots pay particular attention to the remarks field of a PDC, so If i use that box to send "climb 5,000", and you don't catch it in the cockpit, there is a potential for a SID bust.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

In that case, can the PDC not be acknowledged electronically over ACARS if it has an initial altitude provided in it? Or must it be read back via voice?
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thenoflyzone
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by thenoflyzone »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:In that case, can the PDC not be acknowledged electronically over ACARS if it has an initial altitude provided in it? Or must it be read back via voice?

Yes it can be acknowledged electronically. Question is, with these new (now old) procedures, is sending an altitude in the remarks field considered a valid method? I don't know. YTZ seemed to think so. We didn't and required a readback.
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RexKrammer
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Re: New Phraseology for SIDs and STARs: Beginning April 27, 2017

Post by RexKrammer »

kevenv wrote:
RexKrammer wrote:
Effective 0000z May 20th 2017, ATC clearances shall not include the phrase VIA SID/STAR.

The term VIA may be used in the routing segment of an IFR clearance. ATC will also not issue a climb altitude on an initial IFR departure clearance.
Interesting that you got this email. I just got one saying the procedure was now cancelled, but nothing regarding the cancellation of the mandate to issue an altitude in the initial IFR clearance. And I was in work today and nothing at all given in our mandatory briefings at sign-in.
What it is referring to was the requirement to include an altitude when issuing a SID. This was rescinded along with the VIA SID/STAR. If you issue a departure clx that doesn't include a SID you still need to issue an altitude. That was what we received for direction here.
I understand that. My point was, as a tower controller, I was surprised that I've not received official notification of no longer having the requirement to issue an altitude in the initial IFR clearance.
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