Mustang PFD's

Mr. North · Post by **Mr. North** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:21 pm

TC has spent a good deal of time talking about how these new PFD's are going to be implemented into regulation. http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products ... php?id=455 Does anyone know when this will happen? I wouldn't mind making the Mustang PFD part of my work attire since the days of the Mae West are long gone. But until it is regulation, my employer won't be buying any new PFDs. And I'm certainly not about to shell out $170 for a season of employer/peer harassment.

spafloats · Post by **spafloats** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:55 pm

The Mustang vest you refer to doesn`t cut it for commercial aviation (its a boating vest).

You need one with a TSO C13 certification on it such as the Mustang MD1127, Eastern Aero Bravo or the Switlik Parachute Company vest...just to name a few.

Spafloats

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:24 pm

get your employer to sign it off as necessary for employment, then write it off on taxes

CD · Post by CD » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:42 pm

Here is a link to the proposed change to the Standard:

NPA 2005-076 - 551.403 Life Saving Equipment Over Water - Personal Flotation Devices (Pfd)

I can't determine whether this change has made it to/through CARAC yet though... hopefully, soon...

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:28 pm

I wear one of those when I am boating, although mine is automatically inflated. I would get the manual one for flying, because you would not want it to inflate inside the cabin and it is less maintenance. If I travelled by floatplane often I would wear one. Very comfortable for a PFD and I usually forget I have it on.

Cheap insurance.

FLOATER · Post by **FLOATER** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:06 pm

Will they require them to be worn,can not see how you would can put them on upside down,hurt or otherwise.

CD · Post by CD » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:30 pm

FLOATER wrote:Will they require them to be worn,can not see how you would can put them on upside down,hurt or otherwise.

Well, that's exactly what the FAA recommends:

e. Wearing of Flotation Gear During all Phases of Flight. When a standard marine life jacket or FAA-approved life preserver stored in a pouch is tucked unrestrained under a seat, it could be thrown or tossed from the seaplane with other debris in the event of an accident or capsizing. In this case, the flotation gear becomes ineffective for swimmer and nonswimmer alike. Furthermore, life jackets in sealed pouches can be awkward to remove and don in a flooded aircraft. When a survivor attempts to put on a jacket in the water, it may be difficult to find and fasten its straps and hooks. It would take considerable effort to accomplish the combined maneuver of pulling a life jacket over one’s head while in the water trying to stay afloat. If a life preserver is not worn before flight, it is practically impossible for a survivor with an injured arm, for example, to don the life preserver in time for it to be effective for survival. Wearing an uninflated TSO C13f life preserver at all times in the seaplane and inflating it only after exiting the seaplane would seem to be the best protection.

...

13. SUMMARY. The best time to know emergency procedures and the worst time to learn them is during an actual emergency. Inherently buoyant USCG-approved PFD's are usually impractical for most seaplanes and other aircraft because they may prevent people from exiting through doors or windows. The best protection is afforded when wearing inflatable life preservers. When wearing inflatable life preservers, pilots and passengers should always wait until clear of the seaplane before inflating. Finally, the best safety devices are useless without the proper preflight briefings and safety demonstrations.

FAA AC 91-69A - Seaplane Safety For 14 CFR Part 91 Operators

Water off · Post by **Water off** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:19 pm

I used to wear a vest made by Stormy Seas. It was comfortable and it didn't look like a life jacket. Not certified for flight but it still made me more comfortable than trying to wiggle a Mae-west out from under my seat.

spafloats · Post by **spafloats** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:27 pm

Although the Technical Committee has supposedly met (back in 2005!!) their has been no approval of the change to vests that meey UL 1180 type II standard with Canadian Addendum as of yet.

If you buy a TSO C13 F jacket now it will remain approved and you will get a handy-dandy water activated TSO`d strobe light as a bonus!

Besides the above, if you shop carefully and buy the right vest it probably won`t cost you anymore than a boating vest costs.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:46 pm

I'm all for wearing an inflatible vest when flying sea planes.

I wonder what affect it would have on the float plane operators that run sked airline flights out here on the west coast.

It will be interesting to see how it is handled with hundreds of passengers flying every day on these very short flights.

Cat

spafloats · Post by **spafloats** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:37 pm

Cat,

Glad to hear you`re on side with this!

Since taking an underwater egress course with Bryan Webster of Aviation Egress Systems (http://www.dunk-you.com) a number of years ago I have always worn one and recommend that my passengers and students wear one. I have only had one person decline and he seemed to of the contrarian mentality on most other aspects of life!!

As far as commerciall operators are concerned, it is probably a probably a public relations issue more so than a cost issue (just suggesting a passenger might need it could be viewed as detrimental to business) if lower insurance premiums were offered by underwriters for operators with a lifejacket-worn policy (ditto for gear advisory systems in amphibs).

I think that any manual inflatable vest that is worn at all times is better than the Mae West ones that sit in the pouch in the seat pocket that you will probably have trouble finding not to mention donning when the airplane is in the (cold) water upside down!

Spafloats

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:54 pm

spafloats:

Anything that enhances safety is good as far as I am concerned.

Acceptance of inflatable life vests on these small airlines operating sea planes it would not be a problem.

The vest can be the boarding pass.

It is really all about educating people, and I can see no problem if done in the correct way.

See I'm not really a moron like some here think.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:55 pm

delete

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:17 am

We'll let the double post slide then eh

I prefer to fly with the inflatable pfd's anytime I'm over a body of water.. regardless of floats or wheel gear.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:33 am

Don't tempt fate, Cat! But I agree with you - using a life vest as a boarding pass is brilliant!

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products ... .php?mc=57

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:24 am

" Don't tempt fate, Cat! But I agree with you - using a life vest as a boarding pass is brilliant! "

Jeeses Krist, almost 6000 posts on Avcananda and finally I found someone who thinks I'm brilliant...

2R · Post by 2R » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:37 am

Flying is what you do best chuckles ,although Capt Porno may disagree

Crazed Windscreen · Post by **Crazed Windscreen** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:25 am

Ok so what is Harbour Air going to do since they fly over 500 people a day on there sked alone not to mention all there charter and tourism work.
Is a guy in a suit going to put on a pfd to go to Victoria? I don't think so. Not to mention it gets to almost 40 degrees in the back of those Otters in the summer with no air circulation.

Don't get me wrong about the pfd issue but how many people have drowned from not getting there pfd when they left the airplane.

Or is it one more thing to get snagged on the way out the door or hatch?
Ever tried to get out of a Beaver in a hurray? Now do it like your pax with limited mobility and knowledge of the airplane with an ill-fitting pfd on and your eyes closed.

This could put more people in harm than the legislators may think.

Just playing devils advocate.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:40 am

Just take a look at the process the operators use when shuttling workers to/from offshore oil rigs. With the exception of mandatory annual immersion training ($$$ issue), why shouldn't the life of a businessman making a 10 min trip be just as valuable?

Crazed Windscreen · Post by **Crazed Windscreen** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:44 am

Didn't say it was $$$ issue. HA has lots of that but it does factor into it.

So why don't pax on trans ocieanic flights wear pfd's?

youngflier · Post by **youngflier** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:18 pm

whats a pfd a primary flight display?

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:11 pm

pfd = personal flotation device.

Also, the manually inflatable pfds are actually pretty low profile (not bulky/hot), and I see no reason why anyone including someone wearing a suit should refuse to wear them. If I was HA I'd make them mandatory for the pilots and give passengers the option to put them on before flight. If pax give you grief then that's fine, it's their own choice, but tell 'em that all flight crew wear the pfds.

Mr. North · Post by **Mr. North** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:49 pm

Thanks for your devil's advocate approach Crazed Windscreen but like Lommer said, these PFD's are by no means bulky. They are quite compact and versatile; perfectly suited for both passengers and pilots.

You ask how many people have drowned from not getting their pfd and I'd imagine quite a few have. Honestly.. I don't know about harbour air, but if it's anything like my operator, I doubt the majority of the old-fogey American passengers would be physically capable to open and don the old Mae-west amidst the confusion of a significant accident. And what if they're injured? How are you going to swim let alone put on a pfd if you have a broken arm?

I recommend an emergency egress course. After that you'll see that the pro's FAR outweigh the cons in terms of wearing these new and fancy pfd's.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:16 pm

" So why don't pax on trans ocieanic flights wear pfd's? "

Are you suggesting there are some similarities between sitting in an airliner over the ocean at FL370 and flying in a Beaver or Otter on floats between Vancouver and Vancouver Island?

klimman123 · Post by **klimman123** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:22 pm

I've had my Mustang Sportsman PFD for about a year. Would never be without it now. I agree for pax to wear them at all times when on floats. For better safty why not get the rear door handles in the Beaver repositioned. Upside down in water, very difficult for anyone.

Mustang PFD's

Mustang PFD's

Lifejackets

NPA 2005-076

Constant Wear Lifevests