Perimiter Ramp Wait Time

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Edit: Please do not be that guy that is too good to work the ramp, but can't find a 702/703/704 flying job so they decide to get a flight instructor rating and warm the right seat until a "real" job comes along.

There are many good young new flight instructors that instruct because they want to teach, and they get better as their experience level rises.

Unfortunately flight instruction at the FTU level is a very difficult profession to make a decent living at because there is a never ending line of new low time instructors willing to work for low pay.

Flight instructing outside of a FTU can be very rewarding once you get the time, experience and knowledge to offer advanced instruction.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are many good young new flight instructors that instruct because they want to teach, and they get better as their experience level rises.

.

Interesting comment from the guy that wrote this 3 weeks ago........

What has aviation come to?

It sure is not progressing is it?

If it takes twice as long to get a PPL as it did fifty years ago then aviation is one of the only careers in Canada that is going backwards.

Could it be the teachers are sub standard?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Your desire to diss every comment I make BPF may be blinding you to the ability to examine a question in a fair manner.

If it takes twice as long to get a PPL as it did fifty years ago then aviation is one of the only careers in Canada that is going backwards.

Could it be the teachers are sub standard?

I asked a question, I did not paint all instructors with the same brush.

I would also like to point out that I not only have been a flight instructor since the mid fifties but I also owned and operated a flight school both fixed and rotary wing aircraft for five years, which I would argue gives me some insight into how the training business works.

But you already know all this, don't you?

[FL7377]

I asked a question, I did not paint all instructors with the same brush.

I won't paint all instructors with the same brush, but I will say to the 200 hr instructors that are only doing it for experience to move on, "YOU'RE BRINGING DOWN THE INDUSTRY".

You're willing to work long hours for low wages, being raped by the FTU's that employ you for slave labor so you can give "fam" flights to impressionable people who know even less about aviation that yourselves. 200 hr pilots should only be teaching flying to 0 hour pilots under close supervision of a professional, trained and experienced teacher. A Masters of education or at minimum a Bachelors Degree should be required for teaching CPL's.

If you're a 200 hr pilot and thinking "why don't I spend an extra $10k on an instructor rating so I can score that Georgian B1900 right seat", do the industry a favor and don't. If you cant get a direct entry flying gig, get yourself a decent ramp job with a company like Perimeter (this forum is about Perimeter after all) and learn all that you can on the ground about the company you'll hopefully fly for.

There is tons to learn on the ground. Learn what your company does, wether it be cargo, exec charters or northern pop and chips. Learn how to load what you will be flying. If you ramp alongside King Airs learn how much can be loaded in the belly pod, know the sectional weights and how to do weight and balance. If you ramp alongside Dash-8's (Perimeter has a few shiny ones i've seen) learn how to properly set up seat packs because once you fly it, you'll come in contact with clueless ramp folks who will look to you to teach them. If your company gets its ramp staff to de-ice aircraft, learn all you can about aircraft de-icing. If you ramp, you'll know first hand how sh*ty prop wash is when its -40, so when you become a pilot you'll know its not OK to sit at idle upwind of people on the other side of an airport fence.

Learn the people at the company you ramp for, if you bump into a chief pilot, introduce yourself and ask annoying and embarrassing questions like "what do most ramp guys screw up on, what should I be focusing on before I go for company training." Do this so when you go into the cockpit you're armed with 1-2 years experience dealing with the aircraft you're now flying. Ramp experience directly apply's to flying. Over the years I've flown with former ramp staff, office staff and flight instructors hired directly into my company. Everyone's an individual but generally speaking the former ramp folks make the best new FO's. Good luck to all. End rant.

[PositiveRate27]

Are you seriously suggesting that watching other people fly airplanes for 3 years is more benificial than actually flying airplanes for 3 years?

Here are a few things a dedicated flight instrucor will get that a rampie won't:

- flight time in their log book
- multiple aircraft types in their log book
- one thousand + hours of actual flying time after 2 years
- literally hundreds of different names in their log book (ever heard of networking?)
- Far more in depth knowledge of pretty much everything to do with flying airplanes
- Developed teaching techniques that they can carry with them forward through their career
- Developed decision making skills and actual experience reporting to a chief pilot

I hate to break it to you, but ramp to fly positions hurt the industry just as much as sh!tty flight instructors. Plenty of companies make sure the ramp guys are on a B-payscale once they fly and salivate knowing they have highly educated and motivated young perfesionnals willing to work for minimum wage who won't quit. On top of that, once they go flight line they are essentially chained to the company for 4+ years because they only have 250hrs total time and are the better part of 3 years away from an ATPL.

For the right individuals the $10k instructor rating is a proper investment in personal development that enhances their career in far more ways than just padding the log book. It was certainly the best money I ever spent on training. It was a major selling point in my interview at my current employer and has allowed me to expand my involvement in the training department, which inevitably leads to higher income. It also lets me meet almost everyone in flight ops at some point (networking again?) as well as directly affect the standards of the training culture at the company. Not only that, it has allowed me to continue to teach on the side to earn a little more and its a fall back if the airlines were to go through layoffs.

The "learning the company" argument has some valid points, but in reality you can learn all you really need to know about the company after a month or two online. Aircraft loading and C of G? They teach that in the first 15mins of ground school. In reality you'll end up sitting right seat to an instructor with 2/3rds your flight time that the company had to pay more to get than you on your B-scale. He'll be logging multi pic and you'll be sitting there saying how the company that took you with zero flight time, kept you employed and put you in the right seat of a hot airplane has screwed you over.

There are a million ways to skin a cat. Instructors aren't hurting the industry any more than ramp guys are.

PR

[FL7377]

PR,

I think the correct answer is, we're both wrong.

Crumy flight instructors, overworked ramp guys and people willing to fly an over loaded clapped out 206 into nowhere Ontario arnt bringing down the industry. That IS the industry. That's your options for breaking into flying in Canada in the 21st century. One isn't better than the other, it depends on the individual, thier preference and abilities, and opportunities available at the time. Not every one can win the college Jazz scholarship, just find a path and enjoy the ride. There's lots of great jobs out there.

Peace out.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A Masters of education or at minimum a Bachelors Degree should be required for teaching CPL's.

Why?

[falling]

Are you seriously suggesting that watching other people fly airplanes for 3 years is more benificial than actually flying airplanes for 3 years?


The "learning the company" argument has some valid points, but in reality you can learn all you really need to know about the company after a month or two online. Aircraft loading and C of G? They teach that in the first 15mins of ground school. In reality you'll end up sitting right seat to an instructor with 2/3rds your flight time that the company had to pay more to get than you on your B-scale. He'll be logging multi pic and you'll be sitting there saying how the company that took you with zero flight time, kept you employed and put you in the right seat of a hot airplane has screwed you over.

There are a million ways to skin a cat. Instructors aren't hurting the industry any more than ramp guys are.

PR

I guess it all depends. I went north to work the ramp. A classmate of mine who went the instructor route is now sitting beside me in the right seat. Every time we fly together he tells me he wishes he had followed me. To each his own.

[Oxi]

Here are a few things a dedicated flight instrucor will get that a rampie won't:

- flight time in their log book
- multiple aircraft types in their log book
- one thousand + hours of actual flying time after 2 years
- literally hundreds of different names in their log book (ever heard of networking?)
- Far more in depth knowledge of pretty much everything to do with flying airplanes
- Developed teaching techniques that they can carry with them forward through their career
- Developed decision making skills and actual experience reporting to a chief pilot

PR

Cannot agree more!, while instructing I had multiple students and/or names in my logbook that offered me a reference, network or something for a job on the likes of a pc12, king air, bird dog etcetera . Not only that but the amount of different experiences that I encountered with each "name" has been mentioned in each interview since leaving instructing and helped greatly. Training continues today just like PR in our training department and has allowed me to again continue to network and grow my experience and abilities outside of the cockpit.

[PositiveRate27]

PR,

I think the correct answer is, we're both wrong.

Crumy flight instructors, overworked ramp guys and people willing to fly an over loaded clapped out 206 into nowhere Ontario arnt bringing down the industry. That IS the industry. That's your options for breaking into flying in Canada in the 21st century. One isn't better than the other, it depends on the individual, thier preference and abilities, and opportunities available at the time. Not every one can win the college Jazz scholarship, just find a path and enjoy the ride. There's lots of great jobs out there.

Peace out.

You pretty much nailed it on the head my friend. I'd say the best way to move through your career Is find where you want to go, and take jobs to get you there that work for you.

PR

[transfer_pilot]

Hey
My first time posting on this site. I am about to apply for my first job and am leaning towards either PAL or Perimeter. I was hoping you could provide any insights towards perimeter's hiring process as you have gone through it yourself. Also did you personally hand in your CV or did you email it to them?