New severe Ontario Restrictions

[shimmydampner]

Once again I have to say there's good evidence that high uptake of vaccines reduces the number of COVID19 cases, and your refusal to accept one is putting everyone else at a disadvantage.
...
I understand that's your choice, and you're free to make it. But I don't understand the reasoning behind it, if there is any, and as a decision I don't respect it.

There's also good evidence that healthy people under 50 have very little to worry about with regards to the virus. Then there's the evidence that some of these unapproved vaccines are occasionally fatal to that same group of young, healthy people. There is zero evidence regarding long term effects of the vaccine. There is emerging evidence that the vaccines do not prevent transmission. There is evidence that aside from old age, obesity is the single biggest factor in complications and death from covid. It's crazy to expect young, healthy people to willingly put their own health at potential risk if they are uncomfortable doing so, in order to save people who previously couldn't be bothered to take care of their own health and ate themselves into vulnerability. And it's crazy to advocate ridiculing and ostracizing people who make that decision. As someone who is vaccinated, I completely understand some of the reasons for not getting it, and I absolutely do respect those reasons.

[montado]

I’m going to go on my own here and say I think it’s irresponsible to vaccinate those under 18. This is a money grab, and no way would I vaccinate my kids when the IFR is lower than the flu.

If my kids get herd immunity naturally so be it. Jabbing everyone should not be popular if it’s not based on science. Would you write a prescription to someone for an ailment they don’t have? Would you give a man birth control pills? Why would children need this vaccine. Israel has shown vaccinating the adult population has been adequate. Drugs and vaccines are a useful tool but I don’t think we should hand them out like hot cakes on Sunday.

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Hey, now let’s watch Melinda gates talk about how the government is going to send her all sorts of money for taking a risk on vaccines! https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-mel ... b91c3509ae
Yeah baby! The world needs this, and we got this! And government has deep pockets! And we invested! Yeah baby... how do you make a billionaire a trillionaire? I can tell you the first secret is don’t buy a fucking airline!

[photofly]

. It's crazy to expect young, healthy people to willingly put their own health at potential risk if they are uncomfortable doing so, in order to save people who previously couldn't be bothered to take care of their own health and ate themselves into vulnerability.

Perhaps it’s actually not that crazy. Perhaps young healthy people have a love for their fellow man that you don’t.

Most of our healthcare budget is expended on the elderly, the obese and the sick, surprisingly, many of whom can be equally described. I don’t give a lot of weight to your argument that if you die from a COVID-19 infection it must have been your own fault.

But in any case, I don’t think young healthy people are being asked to sacrifice their health for others. It’s self-evident that the risk to health from taking a vaccine must be much lower than the risk of ill effects from the disease that it reduces. Not just over a whole population, but to each individual, as far as can be determined. It would be unethical and in fact unlawful to give a vaccine, or any treatment at all, to an individual for whom the evidence doesn’t show a likely benefit to that individual alone.

A doctor cannot risk my health to vaccinate me only to protect others. It would be illegal, and they would and should be disbarred by their college for doing so. They certainly can’t lie to me to induce me to take a vaccine.

That fact is not surprising, or new, or unknown to every clinician with the responsibility of recommending - or not recommending - a vaccine to any age group or demographic.

When I visit my doctor I trust them to give me appropriate advice on treatment for whatever they diagnose. I don’t lose that trust when it’s a doctor working for public health.

I take Montado’s point about not handing out vaccines like confetti. If it isn’t beneficial to children - it won’t be give to children.

[telex]

This is the problem when conversing with the omnipotent.

I think, from the tenor of your words, you meant to say omniscient. (You're welcome.)

Essentially, Gates wants the public to be his software with subscription until death. Rent your life from your master.

And by definition, being injected with a COVID jab isn't vaccination.

This thread just jumped the shark.

No.

Despite your omnipotent all seeing gift that is not what i meant.

"God/Photofly is described as omnipotent and benevolent"

You see, once again the omnipotent Photofly has decided for me what I actually meant.

['97 Tercel]

Who cares.

Go outside...

[shimmydampner]

It’s self-evident that the risk to health from taking a vaccine must be much lower than the risk of ill effects from the disease that it reduces. Not just over a whole population, but to each individual, as far as can be determined. It would be unethical and in fact unlawful to give a vaccine, or any treatment at all, to an individual for whom the evidence doesn’t show a likely benefit to that individual alone.

Agreed that this certainly should be the case. And yet here we are; young, healthy people with no co-morbidities who, according to the epidemiological data, have nothing to fear from covid, are being vaccinated regardless. And when it's pointed out that the vaccine is generally pointless for them personally, invariably the response invokes altruistic platitudes like doing your civic duty, or helping your fellow man, etc. Even you yourself are trying to appeal to our better natures by trotting out Mrs. Photo and Fly Jr. implying that each person not getting vaccinated is somehow nudging them closer to doom. By all means, vaccinate the vulnerable. But ultimately, a huge number of healthy people are being coerced into becoming lab rats in the biggest vaccine trial in human history. The groupthink narrative tells them they should be terrified of covid. The numbers don't bear that out. Those that recognize that shouldn't be ridiculed for not simply following the herd.

[telex]

Who cares.

Go outside...

You?

[Aviatard]

Tom Nichols wrote this a year ago. He was writing about Americans protesting covid restrictions, but it applies in Canada too, and it's still relevant today, and especially to a number of posters on this thread.

This is how Americans now interpret freedom: Not as a political condition in a democratic society, but as a constant chant of "you're not the boss of me." This is not freedom, or at least not freedom in any political sense. It's a child-like understanding of autonomy.

In "The Death of Expertise," I wrote that people reject expertise as a kind of shout of autonomy, a way of saying that no one can tell them what to do. Thinking adults once understood that this is not the same as "freedom." But we are all about self-affirmation now.

This is what happens when people believe that "freedom" means "telling everyone no," whether it's at work, or at a doctor's office, or in a group activity of any kind. It's a stage toddlers go through, but they grow out of it. This is permanent childhood.

And yelling "no!" at experts and public safety officials is empowering. But only in the sense children understand power: The raw ability to defy someone else. It's not in any way about citizenship, which is how adults balance group obligation and individual freedom.

The protesters demand this empowerment, but without any consequent responsibility. Adults would say: "I accept this risk." Children say: "Let me do what I want and if things go bad, it's not my fault and you have to help me anyway." They just want all this to go away.

"Find me someone to blame, pay me for the harm this pandemic has caused me, and don't tell me about any of my obligations to make sure the human or financial costs don't get worse. Just make *me* whole, and let the other kids worry about whether they're getting a cookie."

So, be thankful for the adults around you wearing masks, staying in, working with the public at risk to themselves in an ER or even just manning a cash register at the grocery store. Citizens are adults, and we have to get through this despite the overgrown children among us.

[montado]

Was that supposed to be some sort of intelligent quote that describes the reality of people who may be against some of the covid measures?

You might be pro vaccine and against lockdown. You might be pro vaccine and against mask wearing. You don’t have to agree with every policy the government pushes, that doesn’t make you like a child. You don’t have to look far back in history how “science and doctors” cause lots of damage and took people’s lively hoods and freedoms. Look up crack babies and how lies damaged black communities.

Hold your government accountable. Question everything. The only one in see constantly looking for people to blame is the pro lockdown pro government policy lemmings. They keep calling people like me grandma killers and the reason covid is not ending. That is the most ridiculous shit I have ever heard. Talk about looking for someone to blame. As yourself why mask policy is only 0.5 percent effective according to cdc, and yet I’m the problem, not government policy.

[photofly]

It’s self-evident that the risk to health from taking a vaccine must be much lower than the risk of ill effects from the disease that it reduces. Not just over a whole population, but to each individual, as far as can be determined. It would be unethical and in fact unlawful to give a vaccine, or any treatment at all, to an individual for whom the evidence doesn’t show a likely benefit to that individual alone.

Agreed that this certainly should be the case. And yet here we are; young, healthy people with no co-morbidities who, according to the epidemiological data, have nothing to fear from covid, are being vaccinated regardless. And when it's pointed out that the vaccine is generally pointless for them personally, invariably the response invokes altruistic platitudes like doing your civic duty, or helping your fellow man, etc. Even you yourself are trying to appeal to our better natures by trotting out Mrs. Photo and Fly Jr. implying that each person not getting vaccinated is somehow nudging them closer to doom. By all means, vaccinate the vulnerable. But ultimately, a huge number of healthy people are being coerced into becoming lab rats in the biggest vaccine trial in human history. The groupthink narrative tells them they should be terrified of covid. The numbers don't bear that out. Those that recognize that shouldn't be ridiculed for not simply following the herd.

I don’t agree with your assessment of the numbers.

If I thought that a vaccine presented a higher risk to you than the disease I would feel very strongly that you shouldn’t accept it.

You’ll notice that the the various vaccines were tested and rolled out for older and more vulnerable groups first. The AZ vaccine has been on-again off-again for younger people while data is collected as to its risk. You are not raising a point that is novel.

My position is to trust public health - that’s why I pay them. If a vaccine is offered, it’s beneficial. To the individual. You might think the risk to you personally from COVID is small, but even taking into account the small risk of contracting the disease in the first place of (which grows in time) the risk from the vaccine is smaller.

The risk to you personally from the disease grows as you get older, and it’s not in your interest for it to become endemic, nor for you to remain unvaccinated. You will not be young and healthy forever. You can (and will, as a statistical certainty) contribute to herd immunity in one of only two ways: contracting the disease or being vaccinated. You can pick now, or pick later!

I don’t know why people are so sensitive about vaccines - look at the enormous harm done by that total twat Wakefield over the MMR vaccine.

How do you feel about the other vaccines available? Do you get a flu shot? Were you vaccinated in childhood?

[photofly]

Here’s some information about the Varicella (chicken pox) vaccine. This vaccine is routinely given to almost all children, and prevents a disease which, like COVID-19 very rarely has long-lasting effects in children but can be much more serious in adults:

In August 2019, Merck published a 22-year review of the varicella vaccine. The review included data collected from study reports submitted from March 17, 1995, through March 16, 2017, during which over 212 million doses were distributed globally. Researchers found a decrease of reported adverse events over time (around 500 per one million doses in 1995 and around 40 per one million doses in 2016) and serious adverse events comprised 0.8 reports per one million doses. The profiles of serious and non-serious adverse events were consistent with previously published reports, and identified no new or unusual safety concerns

Are we asking children to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the (few) adults who benefit from herd immunity to chicken pox? Or are we taking into account that those children who are vaccinated become the adults who benefit from herd immunity?

I’m not demanding that children should be vaccinated; that’s a decision for parents, and a vaccine should only be offered if the risk is low enough. I wonder if “young healthy” people who think they’re not at risk from COVID-19 because they’re young and healthy now know that they’re actually the elderly-in-waiting.

[shimmydampner]

My position is to trust public health - that’s why I pay them. If a vaccine is offered, it’s beneficial. To the individual. You might think the risk to you personally from COVID is small, but even taking into account the small risk of contracting the disease in the first place of (which grows in time) the risk from the vaccine is smaller.

You are probably correct and your reasoning is, in part, why I got a vaccine. However, there's no way around the fact that the long term effects of the vaccines remain to be seen. Ultimately, we are all unpaid test subjects in an enormous trial of, as of yet, unapproved vaccines, some of which have exhibited fatal side effects. For those reasons, I don't think it's unreasonable for some people to decline a vaccine.

How do you feel about the other vaccines available? Do you get a flu shot? Were you vaccinated in childhood?

I feel very strongly in favour of well researched, approved vaccines. I was vaccinated in childhood. I do not get the flu shot, for the same reason I feel I did not need a covid shot: I'm young enough and very healthy with a strong immune system and can shake it off if I contract it. The only reason I relented to the covid shot was because it's become clear to me that very soon, life will be made very inconvenient for those without it.

[photofly]

Is anyone aware of any vaccine (of any kind) having long term effects, say beyond six months?

EDIT: found this page:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

Looking through...

• Very rarely, nervous system disorders such as Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) have been reported after rabies vaccine.

• More serious reactions happen rarely after yellow fever vaccine. These can include:
Nervous system reactions such as inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) and/or spinal cord covering (meningitis), or Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS), among others. Life-threatening severe illness with organ dysfunction or failure.


Those are the only ones with specific long term effects that I can see on that page.

[shimmydampner]

And it's probable that there won't be any with these vaccines either. However, you can't argue that because something rarely if ever happens with most vaccines, it can't happen with this one. If that argument was sound, we wouldn't need to do any testing with any new vaccines.
Oh, and there are those cases of death by brain blood clot. That's pretty long term.

[photofly]

And it's probable that there won't be any with these vaccines either. However, you can't argue that because something rarely if ever happens with most vaccines, it can't happen with this one. If that argument was sound, we wouldn't need to do any testing with any new vaccines.
Oh, and there are those cases of death by brain blood clot. That's pretty long term.

By "long term" I mean not "long lasting" but becoming apparent only in the long term.

It's true that we don't have 10 year studies of any coronavirus vaccines. We don't have 10 year studies of COVID19, either. it's possible that both could have effects arising only in years to come that are completely hidden from us right now - If one wants to raise the spectre of long term effects of vaccines, one has to consider the spectre of long term effects of the disease.

A lot of attention is being directed to looking at the risk of vaccines, and I trust the medical establishment to give me the best advice based on the information available today. It could be wrong. A willingness to reassess advice based on evidence is a strength, which is why I am happy to see reconsideration of the AZ vaccine for different groups. My trust is not blind trust, but I've seen no evidence to diminish that trust.

[shimmydampner]

All good points.

[montado]

Can anyone name one vaccine in history that had unknown side effects that manifested after 6 months of inoculation? I don’t think it ever has. What you see with these vaccines is what you get. They are very safe, and of course some have had bad reaction up to and including death. A very small percentage. I think everyone should have the choice if they want to take it. But I have zero doubt in my mind that there will be some long term unknowns about the vaccine. Never once in history has a vaccine shown some long term effects that were not discovered in the first months of use.

I think people were very hesitant about the polio vax, in hindsight wasn’t it a great thing?

[photofly]

The yellow fever vaccine had some late-showing effects:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4635904/

Yellow fever vaccine was considered one of the safest vaccines, but in recent years it was found that it could rarely cause invasive and disseminated disease in some otherwise healthy individuals, with high lethality. After extensive studies, although some risk factors have been identified, the real cause of causes of this serious adverse event are largely unknown, but findings point to individual host factors.

[Aviatard]

Was that supposed to be some sort of intelligent quote that describes the reality of people who may be against some of the covid measures?

You might be pro vaccine and against lockdown. You might be pro vaccine and against mask wearing. You don’t have to agree with every policy the government pushes, that doesn’t make you like a child. You don’t have to look far back in history how “science and doctors” cause lots of damage and took people’s lively hoods and freedoms. Look up crack babies and how lies damaged black communities.

Hold your government accountable. Question everything. The only one in see constantly looking for people to blame is the pro lockdown pro government policy lemmings. They keep calling people like me grandma killers and the reason covid is not ending. That is the most ridiculous shit I have ever heard. Talk about looking for someone to blame. As yourself why mask policy is only 0.5 percent effective according to cdc, and yet I’m the problem, not government policy.

I get your point that a healthy skepticism is useful and I agree with you that governments should be held accountable, but we can't question literally everything. To do that I'd have to be an expert in everything, and that's just not possible. I have to trust this bridge is properly built and safe to drive over, because I'm not a civil engineer and know nothing about building a bridge. I'm not a statistician either, and it's been a long time since I studied statistics. I don't know how to interpret the results of that study you keep touting as proving that masks don't work. Do you? That 0.5 percent effectiveness number seems quite small on the surface, but what does it mean? Millions of cases were prevented? A couple of dozen? It makes me wonder what number you'd accept as being worth it. Do you want to see 90%?

So instead I have to rely on the advice of experts in the field. I don't like wearing a mask. I wear one all day at work. It bothers my ears, makes it hard to breath at times, and fogs my glasses. It's a nuisance. But I do it. I also got the first shot of the vaccine because the best advice I have seen says that I should, not just to protect me but also my young and elderly family members. Of course someone is going to quote my last sentences as an example of virtue signalling. Have at it.

You have the freedom to not do any of these things. You are not free from criticism for doing so, or from repercussions for the actions you take or fail to take. So go on being contrarian for the sake of being contrary. I salute your resoluteness.

[montado]

If masks are effective, and thousands of Canadians get the flu ever year, why don’t we just always wear masks? Why is a covid death worse? 500,000 people die of influenza every year (and that’s with vaccines available). Masks could save thousands of those lives.

It seriously makes me wonder what number you use to make things seem worth it.

This is not really a discussion about science and experts, it’s about your values.

One person could say... if we all wear masks and it stops one death globally, it was worth it to wear masks!

And another person might need more substance to that. Ya know, just following case counts around the world and policy with masks it looks rather difficult to make a link to mask policy being effective. Yet the experts keep telling us masks make us safe, and that is the biggest pile of shit lie the government has been telling us for 12 months.

Effective measures should be mandated within what our charter of rights and freedoms allow. Ineffective measures should not. Allow business to set their own rules “no shirt no shoes no service”. Many people would still wear masks.... ya know the kind of people who hang their masks from their rear view mirrors, how idiotic. If you don’t want to handle your mask properly just don’t wear one at all, no need to virtue signal with your mask hanging from your mirror. From all the mask research I have read, not using PPE properly is most often worse than not using it at all. This is what happens when you tell everyone who is not sick to pretend they are sick, and why mask policy is one of the most useless measures this pandemic. Right up there with the covid app from our government... oh shit we all quietly forgot about that millions of dollars spent on nothing application. Sorry for bringing it up. The app that stopped zero cases of covid.

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[photofly]

I just don’t get your obsession with masks.

[shimmydampner]

we can't question literally everything. To do that I'd have to be an expert in everything

No you wouldn't. Just a critical thinker. And questioning literally everything would be exhausting. But certainly something as important as allowing yourself to be injected with an experimental substance should be questioned with a very critical eye, regardless of what side you ultimately fall on. You don't have to agree with me or anyone else, but don't just let it happen because it happens to be the way the wind is currently blowing.

[montado]

I just don’t get your obsession with masks.

I’m the one obsessed with masks? Funny because I was going to say I don’t understand the asymptomatic people obsessed with masks. I don’t get the mandatory mask policy still in place in Israel when covid deaths are now zero. I don’t understand why Texas is just fine without masks attending sport events with thousands of fans yet people in Ontario are afraid to even be around a handful of people without a mask. Speaking of obsession, I’m the furthest thing from being obsessed with masks.

Can you explain why so many people obsess over masks?

[CruiserNU]

.....I don’t understand why Texas is just fine without masks attending sport events with thousands of fans yet people in Ontario are afraid to even be around a handful of people without a mask.

[/quote]

It's a difference in the culture. A Canadian, asked to jump, says "how high?" An American says "f**k you". I know who I'd rather be friends with.

[montado]

.....I don’t understand why Texas is just fine without masks attending sport events with thousands of fans yet people in Ontario are afraid to even be around a handful of people without a mask.

It's a difference in the culture. A Canadian, asked to jump, says "how high?" An American says "f**k you". I know who I'd rather be friends with.
[/quote]

What did you even just write?

So the virus discriminates and attacks those who jump the highest? I’m not looking at personality traits, I’m looking for evidence that masks have made a difference... and the answer when you look at the data, is they make very little difference. Probably can’t even measure it. But you guys keep jumping thought hoops like circus animals... yes, the Canadian way.

In other news

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/toronto/2 ... 14249.html

Teachers union fought hard to get teachers to the front of the line for vaccines, then the government sent them all home. Teachers are at home working in a laptop vaccinated meanwhile the union-less hotel staff without a voice are literally right in harms way at quarantine hotels, unvaccinated. Who’s idea was this?

Let me guess! They were all told wear a mask at work! You will be safe! I can’t keep up with the idiotic circus hoop jumping. Please tell me more! Wear a mask! You will be safe! I feel bad that these people have to work in these conditions and no one had the foresight to vaccinate the very people who work around people in quarantine.

Read this shit in the article

Despite the number of cases, the city says the risk remains low because the facility is not open to the public.

Well that’s bullshit! Airline crews have been staying in quarantine designated hotels.

Lies lies lies... how high can you jump!?!?