No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[altiplano]

I think you should butt out of the issues of another Union at a company you have stated that you have no interest in being a part of though... go float a boat or something...

What one union does affects all of us. When AC cuts their pilots pay, Air Transat, Sunwing, WestJet, Porter, Flair, and whoever else I'm missing uses it to justify why they should cut their pilot's pay too.

That doesn't negate the fact that all that ACPALeaks does is bitch and complain on the Jazz and Flair sub-forums.

If you don't like what I'm saying, you don't need to engage with me. That's your choice.

So he says "I expect better"

and you say "quit bitching and complaining"

then you say "those concession affect me so I have a standing to speak"

Are you fucking serious? You should be supporting, not cutting people pushing for improvements. And really you don't have any standing to wade in on people calling out their own defective association.

Sharpen up and grow up.

[altiplano]

as one of the 600, i don't feel how this guy feels, nor would i create a toxic work environment for myself by doing the petty things, calling in sick when not, that's just asking the company to crack down on that behaviour. while i respect others view on acpa, it's the disgruntled few that are the most vocal on here. acpa has the majority support, and that majority recognize the hard work done by the volunteers.

.
The company is creating the wrong work environment, not the pilots who are always there above and beyond. They keep taking, taking, taking... our dry powder stores are overflowed at this point.

Actually, the majority supported the "Unity Initiative" with ALPA which was shelved by the current leadership when they took hold. Hard work by volunteers? Sure the ones summarily dismissed.

Not to mention the volunteer DSC top up to 82 hours while the broader membership has collected 55, 63... or the volunteers doing 95 hours a month... RP, QJ, BM, and more... way to represent DBs... you sure are leaders... in total VO...

DBs = DouchBags

[160tonoaha]

ACPALeaks is upset that ACPA hasn't represent him the way he wants to be represented.

You're damn right I am. In fact according to ACPA they don't represent us at all anymore. And it's not just me, there are a lot of pilots at AC right now angry with our representatives. And not just furloughed pilots either.

It's easy to judge from the outside but if you were in mine and 599 other pilots shoes right now you'd also be pissed off. I guarantee it. We sit here while our flying is being scoped away, pay cuts voted in, watching our union reps pretend we don't exist while they list for and fly overtime. Hell even the scope chair is pushing 100 hours this month.

As one of the 600 I couldn't agree more. I hope for every single person who has been affected by the incompetant decisions that have been made by our association, that they never forget how they were treated during these times. Once we are back on property we all need to take part of every single election and vote accordingly. The company/union better realize they are breeding a toxic and divisive work environment.

I plan to take care of myself once back online. I will never go above and beyond ever again until I feel I have been compensated for the way we were treated this last 1.5 years. That means using my sick time, calling in fatigued, and working to the letter of the contract. PERIOD.

No freebies will ever come from me again.

I see company morale is at an all-time high ... sadly, when the bottom 600 feels like this... wonder what kind of career/attitude they're going to have over the span of their tenure.

This is what's so wrong about AC, and I'm glad the pandemic showcased it for the group.

There's a facade that it's the end all be all... but the reality is that everyone is treated horribly and there's no sense of community amongst any two employees on the property. That's a lonely 30+ year career.

At least you sold your soul for a pension...

There are many ways to get to Rome I guess - AC is one of them.

[acpaleaks]

Thankfully I don't place my whole identity in being a pilot, and have a great life outside of work. Flying while I enjoy it is still a job and a means to an end. But I still wouldn't want to do anything else.

For those who only care about being a pilot, yes it will be a lonely 30 years.

Frankly I also don't really plan on doing much above my contractual requirements. I prefer spending as little time at work as possible.

[Montroyal]

You're damn right I am. In fact according to ACPA they don't represent us at all anymore. And it's not just me, there are a lot of pilots at AC right now angry with our representatives. And not just furloughed pilots either.

It's easy to judge from the outside but if you were in mine and 599 other pilots shoes right now you'd also be pissed off. I guarantee it. We sit here while our flying is being scoped away, pay cuts voted in, watching our union reps pretend we don't exist while they list for and fly overtime. Hell even the scope chair is pushing 100 hours this month.

As one of the 600 I couldn't agree more. I hope for every single person who has been affected by the incompetant decisions that have been made by our association, that they never forget how they were treated during these times. Once we are back on property we all need to take part of every single election and vote accordingly. The company/union better realize they are breeding a toxic and divisive work environment.

I plan to take care of myself once back online. I will never go above and beyond ever again until I feel I have been compensated for the way we were treated this last 1.5 years. That means using my sick time, calling in fatigued, and working to the letter of the contract. PERIOD.

No freebies will ever come from me again.

as one of the 600, i don't feel how this guy feels, nor would i create a toxic work environment for myself by doing the petty things, calling in sick when not, that's just asking the company to crack down on that behaviour. while i respect others view on acpa, it's the disgruntled few that are the most vocal on here. acpa has the majority support, and that majority recognize the hard work done by the volunteers.

Disgruntled "few"

Obviously you havent been at work lately

Missed per diems, a confusing system to reclaim loss pay, 10% pay cuts, a half ass implementation of "best fit", illegal pairings for RAP, base chairs taking overtime, WJ doing cargo on full pay, Jazz fully recalled doing AC mainline flying while 600 AC furloughs are told "2023"...

What did I miss?

Stay tuned because one thing that is always guaranteed - the next $hitshow is just around the corner!

[47north]

As one of the 600 I couldn't agree more. I hope for every single person who has been affected by the incompetant decisions that have been made by our association, that they never forget how they were treated during these times. Once we are back on property we all need to take part of every single election and vote accordingly. The company/union better realize they are breeding a toxic and divisive work environment.

I plan to take care of myself once back online. I will never go above and beyond ever again until I feel I have been compensated for the way we were treated this last 1.5 years. That means using my sick time, calling in fatigued, and working to the letter of the contract. PERIOD.

No freebies will ever come from me again.

as one of the 600, i don't feel how this guy feels, nor would i create a toxic work environment for myself by doing the petty things, calling in sick when not, that's just asking the company to crack down on that behaviour. while i respect others view on acpa, it's the disgruntled few that are the most vocal on here. acpa has the majority support, and that majority recognize the hard work done by the volunteers.

Disgruntled "few"

Obviously you havent been at work lately

Missed per diems, a confusing system to reclaim loss pay, 10% pay cuts, a half ass implementation of "best fit", illegal pairings for RAP, base chairs taking overtime, WJ doing cargo on full pay, Jazz fully recalled doing AC mainline flying while 600 AC furloughs are told "2023"...

What did I miss?

Stay tuned because one thing that is always guaranteed - the next $hitshow is just around the corner!

I can understand your frustration, but am curious what mainline flying you think Jazz is doing. Looking at the schedule, it’s the same routes as before.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Well considering AC owns all the flying I would argue its all mainline flying. As per the CA we had scope ratio's that would have prohibited the amount of flying Jazz is currently doing. Good thing we negotiated that away... I sure hope ACPA is negotiating a similar LOU that JAZ ALPA just got.

Let this sink in... on the project reroute call with MS and MM, MS said he absolutely intends to hire the pilots he made conditional offers too (Cancelled April 2020 GS) which I personally think is the absolute right thing to do. These pilots will be the next in the door after our most junior furlough is recalled. These said pilots were hired back to Jazz on the BOTL put on CEWS and were able to make bank throughout the pandemic. While the 600 were thrown under the bus. Now they are all recalled Aug 29th. It would seem as though pilots not even on the AC seniority list are getting a better deal than AC pilots.

When is ACPA going to wake up and start representing AC pilots?

[altiplano]

I can understand your frustration, but am curious what mainline flying you think Jazz is doing. Looking at the schedule, it’s the same routes as before.

Mainline Pilots own all the flying. The contract allows an amount of flying to go to CPA carriers when Mainline Pilots are operating an amount of ASMs and above a threshold of aircraft. They are not meeting those requirement. By the contract AC is not permitted any CPA flying based on current levels at mainline.

But ACPA threw it away as rudder posted earlier, another year and a half with the grievance settlement for what will be essentially nothing but extended layoffs at Mainline. The ineptitude of our negotiators and leaders is beyond what's conceivable.

[RippleRock]

I would hazzard to say that something else is going on.

The current ACPA leadership is constantly recommending that we give away the farm. Why would they do that? Every time they go into negotiations hoping to horse trade....just a horse for a horse for God's sake..... they come back recommending and justifying a donkey. Every time.

I literally get sick to the stomach with shame when I see a Delta aircraft or pilot. I remove my hat in embarrassment when they are around.

I also literally fear negotiations time....for anything. If its not WACON lost, it's further disunity.

This is fundamentally wrong, and they know it. We are being completely misrepresented, and they need to be shown the door.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

For comparison, I am interested to see what the pilots who are happy are saying.

Unfortunately this forum attracts those who are unhappy, so I doubt we'll see the opposing view.

[hithere]

Is there not still an ACPA website forum/web board? Or was it shut down/dissenting views barred? Why don’t the disgruntled form a Facebook group? Absolutely nothing is accomplished by bitching on Avcanada. This is just an echo chamber

[acpaleaks]

If you think avcan is an echo chamber......

At least here people more inclined to REALLY say what they feel since their name isn't attached with management reading. The AC pilot forum is 10x worse when it comes to groupthink/echo chamber nonsense. We even have retired guys writing page long replies of what the union direction should be. Like dude, go golf or something and enjoy that nice pension.

Although I guess golfing can get boring. See exhibit #1.

(For the non AC folks, VO stands for voluntary overtime)

[grimreaper70]

.

[grimreaper70]

It's the year 2023

The pandemic is in its 3rd year.  We are in the 9th wave and the variants have exceeded the Greek alphabet.

The country now has a vaccination rate of 82% but officials now say that herd immunity can only be achieved with 90% as the goal post has now moved for the 34th time. It has been declared shots are only good for 1 year with the ultimate result of a now shrinking vaccination rate.   Australia is in its 45th lockdown.  Scooby-Doo would come help in the hunt for Covid but an international flight hasn't landed in the land of down under for 3 years. "Ruh-roh!"

Our Minister of Transport is still parading around the country promoting choo-choo trains and electric airplanes. No one has had the heart to tell him that Tesla super charging stations haven't made it to Resolute Bay yet and that they simply use diesel generators.  Canadian regionals are at full strength with Q400s and Regional Jets dominating the skies over Canuckistan.  Alas, what a time to be a Canadian pilot! US Airlines might own international traffic and be hiring thousands but at least we got our very own Canadian built RJs flying into SFO.

The new ULCC "U Betta Beliebe It Air" has hit the skies with the nation's favorite Justin on the tail.  Passengers can book rock bottom fares of $29 to be taken care of by employees called "Beliebers".  This is all of course to the fan fare of local Airport authorities who celebrate the competition & low fares but at the same time are quietly raising user fees to levels where you would expect the finest Charmin Ultra Soft but instead find yourself with paper thin shit tickets that literally lead to a literal shit show on your fingers. Apparently pandemics don't change certain aspects of hygiene.  Total fare after the $300 government add on leads to even more Canadians driving to Buffalo & Seattle. Oh Canada!

Pilots are initially excited to see more jobs but soon see the minimum hour requirement of 10,000 hrs, current & already type rated and the preferred skills of being "handy" with electrical & plumbing.  Americans might be confused by such a job ad but this is Canuckistan and the lighting in the shitters aren't fixing themselves. 


But the biggest event for Canuckistan pilots in 2023 is the recall of furloughs at the NHL of aviation. Most of them took pay cuts to come back to the ranks of the lowest paid wide body pilots in the world but the Canadian mantra "just be happy you have a job!" dominates and overrides any sort of rational thought to what a skilled aviator deserves.  Flat pay is "just 4 years" and you need to "pay your dues" after you paid your dues.  Perhaps pretending like your Cher with eye lifts you can actually mimick her 1989 hit "If I Could Turn Back Time" as to fool yourself that it's OK that 22 year old new grads make more than your bald and greying self.

It's OK though, it's 2023 and its time to renegotiate a new contract. With aviation on the rebound, surely this will be the time  to "get'em".  The "Capturing" philosophy of years prior by taking pay cuts so managers could take bonuses is gone.  Flying into nations with uncertain testing procedures with unclear consequences while 2 of your very own countrymen are incarcerated by this country's officials is a thing of the past.

We are now a reinvigorated pilot force that have learned from our prior mistakes.  Surely, this will be our moment - right?

"I'll Beliebe it when I see it"

[RippleRock]

For comparison, I am interested to see what the pilots who are happy are saying.

Unfortunately this forum attracts those who are unhappy, so I doubt we'll see the opposing view.

Anyone?

I would love to hear what they have to say as well. Please name just one thing that ACPA has brought to the Membership that wasn't traded for something of greater value....or just a single unifying action or proposal brought forward by ACPA that benefited the entire group in recent memory.

My bet is crickets.....


By the way ACPA has --no forum-- where we can freely communicate with one another and with our elected officials without some form of censorship or question/answer screening. If the question isn't appropriate, or deemed "too difficult" to answer, it's deleted or ignored. My bet is it is the only Major Airline on the planet that doesn't promote free communication between its Membership and its elected reps through some form of chat room or forum. Don't get me wrong, you can ask an ACPA rep a question, but it is in isolation. Just you and them. That's usually as far as your query will go.

[acpaleaks]

It's the year 2023

The pandemic is in its 3rd year.  We are in the 9th wave and the variants have exceeded the Greek alphabet.

The country now has a vaccination rate of 82% but officials now say that herd immunity can only be achieved with 90% as the goal post has now moved for the 34th time. It has been declared shots are only good for 1 year with the ultimate result of a now shrinking vaccination rate.   Australia is in its 45th lockdown.  Scooby-Doo would come help in the hunt for Covid but an international flight hasn't landed in the land of down under for 3 years. "Ruh-roh!"

Our Minister of Transport is still parading around the country promoting choo-choo trains and electric airplanes. No one has had the heart to tell him that Tesla super charging stations haven't made it to Resolute Bay yet and that they simply use diesel generators.  Canadian regionals are at full strength with Q400s and Regional Jets dominating the skies over Canuckistan.  Alas, what a time to be a Canadian pilot! US Airlines might own international traffic and be hiring thousands but at least we got our very own Canadian built RJs flying into SFO.

The new ULCC "U Betta Beliebe It Air" has hit the skies with the nation's favorite Justin on the tail.  Passengers can book rock bottom fares of $29 to be taken care of by employees called "Beliebers".  This is all of course to the fan fare of local Airport authorities who celebrate the competition & low fares but at the same time are quietly raising user fees to levels where you would expect the finest Charmin Ultra Soft but instead find yourself with paper thin shit tickets that literally lead to a literal shit show on your fingers. Apparently pandemics don't change certain aspects of hygiene.  Total fare after the $300 government add on leads to even more Canadians driving to Buffalo & Seattle. Oh Canada!

Pilots are initially excited to see more jobs but soon see the minimum hour requirement of 10,000 hrs, current & already type rated and the preferred skills of being "handy" with electrical & plumbing.  Americans might be confused by such a job ad but this is Canuckistan and the lighting in the shitters aren't fixing themselves. 


But the biggest event for Canuckistan pilots in 2023 is the recall of furloughs at the NHL of aviation. Most of them took pay cuts to come back to the ranks of the lowest paid wide body pilots in the world but the Canadian mantra "just be happy you have a job!" dominates and overrides any sort of rational thought to what a skilled aviator deserves.  Flat pay is "just 4 years" and you need to "pay your dues" after you paid your dues.  Perhaps pretending like your Cher with eye lifts you can actually mimick her 1989 hit "If I Could Turn Back Time" as to fool yourself that it's OK that 22 year old new grads make more than your bald and greying self.

It's OK though, it's 2023 and its time to renegotiate a new contract. With aviation on the rebound, surely this will be the time  to "get'em".  The "Capturing" philosophy of years prior by taking pay cuts so managers could take bonuses is gone.  Flying into nations with uncertain testing procedures with unclear consequences while 2 of your very own countrymen are incarcerated by this country's officials is a thing of the past.

We are now a reinvigorated pilot force that have learned from our prior mistakes.  Surely, this will be our moment - right?

"I'll Beliebe it when I see it"

This is probably what Trudeau dreams of.

[acpaleaks]

For comparison, I am interested to see what the pilots who are happy are saying.

Unfortunately this forum attracts those who are unhappy, so I doubt we'll see the opposing view.

Anyone?

I would love to hear what they have to say as well. Please name just one thing that ACPA has brought to the Membership that wasn't traded for something of greater value....or just a single unifying action or proposal brought forward by ACPA that benefited the entire group in recent memory.

My bet is crickets.....


By the way ACPA has --no forum-- where we can freely communicate with one another and with our elected officials without some form of censorship or question/answer screening. If the question isn't appropriate, or deemed "too difficult" to answer, it's deleted or ignored. My bet is it is the only Major Airline on the planet that doesn't promote free communication between its Membership and its elected reps through some form of chat room or forum. Don't get me wrong, you can ask an ACPA rep a question, but it is in isolation. Just you and them. That's usually as far as your query will go.

There's 6 pilots happy with ACPA and they all just happen to be on the MEC.

[Outlaw58]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I'd like to know how exactly scope could have been respected, and still make it through the pandemic.

Only ways I can think of are to place AC aircraft on Jazz routes or train AC pilots on Jazz aircrafts. Two options I believe to be unviable.

Was there another option I can't think of?

Thanks,

58

[zlin242l]

Thanks for making me chuckle this morning grimreaper70! Very well said my friend!!

[acpaleaks]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I'd like to know how exactly scope could have been respected, and still make it through the pandemic.

Only ways I can think of are to place AC aircraft on Jazz routes or train AC pilots on Jazz aircrafts. Two options I believe to be unviable.

Was there another option I can't think of?

Thanks,

58

That's not our problem.

[rudder]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I'd like to know how exactly scope could have been respected, and still make it through the pandemic.

Only ways I can think of are to place AC aircraft on Jazz routes or train AC pilots on Jazz aircrafts. Two options I believe to be unviable.

Was there another option I can't think of?

Thanks,

58

That's not our problem.

ACPA cut a deal on scope ratios for 2021/2022. Pilots voted. It passed.

It is your problem.

I didn’t see any empathy on this board when over 50% of the active Express pilots were on layoff yet just 14% of the mainline pilots were on layoff. Now Express will have full employment effective August 29 albeit at a pay guarantee for some that mirrors minimum wage.

ALPA did it’s deals during COVID. ACPA did it’s deals during COVID. Each group lives with the consequences.

Express pilots are not to blame for the woes of the 600 mainline pilots still on layoff.

[altiplano]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I'd like to know how exactly scope could have been respected, and still make it through the pandemic.

Only ways I can think of are to place AC aircraft on Jazz routes or train AC pilots on Jazz aircrafts. Two options I believe to be unviable.

Was there another option I can't think of?

Thanks,

58

First of all let's dispense with the term "Jazz routes" as there is no such thing.

Here's an idea....

SkyRegional was shut down and 25 EMJ175s transferred to Jazz. Those are the very same EMJ175s that we're stolen from us 8 years ago. At the same time AC returned the EMJ190s from Mainline, same type rating, same sim, current AC pilots... we should have brought those 25 aircraft back to Mainline to start, it would just a matter of transferring the paperwork and the AC EMJ pilots - all of which were trained and current - getting on board and firing it up.

Then if you want to talk about a short term let to allow Q400s to go to Sudbury and Terrace while mainline still meets none of the mainline job numbers - aircraft/ASMs - to support ANY CPA flying being permitted, we can probably arrange that with strict snap backs, definitely not a 2+ year wide open deal.

We have the A220 with fuel burns better than an RJ, the 737max with fuel burns of an EMJ... all underutilized throughout the pandemic. There's clearly room to work here with mainline metal and pilots. And you know if you still want that CRJ flying to Chicago and New York and San Francisco, that was once a Mainline plane too... bring it back, or quid pro quo a big fucking improvement after 20 years of Mainline wawcon declines, reverse the steal...

DB pension stolen from new members, yet it's over funded into the $billions.
25% increased member payments into the DB pension, yet the corporation takes a forever payment holiday.
DB pension indexing stolen.
B-scale and C-scale wawcon
LOU74
4 year fixed rate pay
Expenses short changed EVERY month is theft
PBS optimizing
No calendar day with credit, 4:25 DPG doesn't cut it
Reserve rules
Falling pay which inflation adjusted has declined 40% in the last 20 years - we are basically making the same dollar to dollar we were in 2001 with worse work rules, worse benefits, and a higher cost of everything.

So there's lots of thing too address here if the corporation wants CRJs at Jazz and doing the flying.

But whatever we allowed, because we fully held the keys here, it was leverage and we got bupkis.... if the company didn't want to deal... F-you, it's Air Canada flying.

1.02.01
All Pilot Positions and all flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or its Affiliates, including all flying utilizing the Company IATA designator code (AC or ACA) or future similar designator code will be occupied and performed by Air Canada Pilots exclusively in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.

[altiplano]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I'd like to know how exactly scope could have been respected, and still make it through the pandemic.

Only ways I can think of are to place AC aircraft on Jazz routes or train AC pilots on Jazz aircrafts. Two options I believe to be unviable.

Was there another option I can't think of?

Thanks,

58

That's not our problem.

ACPA cut a deal on scope ratios for 2021/2022. Pilots voted. It passed.

It is your problem.

I didn’t see any empathy on this board when over 50% of the active Express pilots were on layoff yet just 14% of the mainline pilots were on layoff. Now Express will have full employment effective August 29 albeit at a pay guarantee for some that mirrors minimum wage.

ALPA did it’s deals during COVID. ACPA did it’s deals during COVID. Each group lives with the consequences.

Express pilots are not to blame for the woes of the 600 mainline pilots still on layoff.

Of course it's not us versus Express pilots, I put no blame there at all, it's the issues of ACPA and management that are to blame.

And it is our problem, and we see the consequence. It's high time to take a different approach and fix the mistakes. Never again.

If it isn't abundantly clear to some ACPA pilots that we are the losers again here, without snap back, without recourse, and we got nothing for it, then they're stupid, blind, or both.

We had an AIP that completely carved out sections of our collective agreement, omnibus voted with this scope grievance settlement... and we didn't even have the language agreed on yet! Just webinar slides and some bullshit one sided sell about what it was all about and the intent...

20 years of "there is no leverage" ACPA flushing it all away...

This association and pilot group wouldn't realize they had leverage or opportunity if you stuck it up their ass.

[Outlaw58]

First of all let's dispense with the term "Jazz routes" as there is no such thing.

Apologies.

What I meant by that was the idea of sending an A220 to YGR.

.... if the company didn't want to deal... F-you, it's Air Canada flying.

I don't think you realize how close AC came to invoke "Force Majeur" and had that happen, all that leverage you claim you had would have gone "poof"

58

[rudder]

So there's lots of thing too address here if the corporation wants CRJs at Jazz and doing the flying.

But whatever we allowed, because we fully held the keys here, it was leverage and we got bupkis.... if the company didn't want to deal... F-you, it's Air Canada flying.

Once again - ALPA and the Express pilots are not to blame for where the AC pilots find themselves industrially circa 2021.

ALPA warned ACPA in 2010 what was waiting for them across the river in Hull in the Minister of Transport’s office, did they listen?

Express pilots did not vote on any ACPA COVID related LOU’s. As a matter of fact, Express pilots didn’t even get to vote on any ALPA COVID related LOU’s.

Express pilots did not vote on any of the AC cargo LOU’s.

But ALPA was able to leverage the COVID shutdown to consolidate the Express flying back to one CPA, one pilot group, and one collective agreement.

The Express pilots will look back at the COVID era as a painful one. But the result will be elimination of the Express whipsaw.

Because of Article 1, ACPA does not have to worry about being whipsawed vs Express. ACPA’s biggest problem is being whipsawed against itself. That is the sad tale of the past decade.