Flow through to AC

[tango308]

Would it be faster to quit Jazz and apply OTS at this point?

Well if we look at 2022 it's been pretty good for the OTS so far, so would say yes.

I'm afraid this will be the new normal as Jazz will be hurting for Captains for a long time (as long as they don't seriously consider increasing the pay). AC will probably reduce the flow to keep those CA's at Jazz.

EDIT: quit and go to the competition, YES. Quit and just try to go to AC without another job, NO.

[Loon-A-Tic]

AC/Jazz only needs to do one simple thing. Offer an AC seniority number too those at Jazz waiting/wanting/considering a move. All will be happy as pigs in the mud to wait it out at a much higher annual income while chewing to the four years of flat pay at AC.

[Tbayer2021]

Gotta love pilots and their Stockholm syndrome. Daddy AC has done this before, gents! The joke pre-covid was that the fastest way to AC was Encore/Westjet. Yet pilots are still wondering if they should put up their bowls and beg for more, "Please sir...........".

[Ash Ketchum]

This industry is brutal. How can jazz management expect that the said captains will stay at Jazz working for crap pay with no chance at AC when everyone else is hiring. They will lose the captains one way or another unless they significantly raise pay or offer an AC seniority number.

[Dias]

Its only a one month hold

Let me introduce you to Air Canada rolling delays.

[negative_g]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

[negative_g]

AC/Jazz only needs to do one simple thing. Offer an AC seniority number too those at Jazz waiting/wanting/considering a move. All will be happy as pigs in the mud to wait it out at a much higher annual income while chewing to the four years of flat pay at AC.

Can't do that without ACPA saying ok. And I doubt AC will be willing to pay what ACPA will demand for the privilege of accessing our seniority list. At least I hope they're going to demand the moon. Thankfully the makeup of the MEC is a lot different now than a year ago.

[Transition9er2]

Would it be faster to quit Jazz and apply OTS at this point?

Anyone hired "post" Covid at Jazz will thank you for that. Its only a one month hold; load on some extra gas, wait out the passing storm the skies will clear again.

Ya, I don’t see this as being a 1 month deal at all.

In Steves email he says they’re hiring “approx. 20 every 3 weeks”.

Respectfully, “IF” 20 show up each class is that even enough to close the gap AND get ahead of the demand?

I hate to say it, but I think Jazz pilots are screwed here. The winter season and crazy Christmas holidays are right around the corner. After that, next summer will be here faster than you think and it’ll be even crazier than this last one.

In my opinion, what’s coming next is a VERY watered down flow (November, March and maybe April that’ll be it) and heavy HEAVY pressure for ppl to take upgrades.

Unless Jazz significantly increases their pay, (IMO) the only way they get out of this is by suspending Flow all together for at least a year.

But don’t worry, the “NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS” management still believe there’s no pilot shortage and that they can figure this out.

— insert the “this is fine” meme here —

[PostmasterGeneral]

I agree with the above sentiment. I think this is a win for the Jazz guys. The company will have to increase wages significantly to attract qualified captains.

For those of you at Jazz wanting to go to AC, get the hell out now and go to another carrier, and apply as an OTS hire. The resumes are flooding out to other operators already, don’t get stuck at the bottom of the pile.

[a2btrail]

I agree with the above sentiment. I think this is a win for the Jazz guys. The company will have to increase wages significantly to attract qualified captains.

For those of you at Jazz wanting to go to AC, get the hell out now and go to another carrier, and apply as an OTS hire. The resumes are flooding out to other operators already, don’t get stuck at the bottom of the pile.

I agree for the most part....

Right now AC is still interviewing pilots as late as OCT 2017....

If you have a DOH in Q3/4 of 2017 or Q1 of 2018 and you want to go to AC I would say stay.

If you are fresh out of college with 300 and CPL and do not have anywhere near the ATPL requirements no point to go might as well fly your bag off get experience and then reconsider.

If you're high time with a ATPL... CA or FO with LOW jazz seniority.... and you want AC then I would reconsider....

If you don't care for AC and/or are money driven ....now is the time to make your move simple.

[Jetlifer]

I guess there are a few things to unpack here:

My first question would be, has this happened in the past? If so what was the remedy sought out by the union with the employer.

Knowing this would give you a good indication of what to expect.

Secondly, I would suggest not seeing things in black and white, what’s written in a contract has limits. Instead think outside the box: you are running an airline, and honoring your contract of pilots to AC puts the viability of the operation at risk. Facing that fact you only have one logical choice, and that is to violate your agreement. Allow flow at what your training department can sustain.. which frankly isn’t much.

Last, in terms of ALPA making some sort of deal with ACPA that will likely not ever happen. If you look into why ACPA was formed you’ll quickly learn the reason as to why no deal will ever be made.

Compressed story is: Regional pilots felt they should hold seniority at AC.. AC disagreed.. the courts voted in favor of the regionals. So AC broke off and formed ACPA. Now you tell me, why would that sentiment be different now.. I think you’d get more water from a stone frankly.

It is unprecedented times, and the great pilot shortage is finally upon us.. hoorah! So who knows, I could be wrong.. maybe this will shake up the industry, but likely at best you’ll just see possibly an increase in pay, and that is a maybe.

Do I know what to do about it? No clue here boys and girls.. it’s a giant chess game we’re all forced to play, which is designed to keep wages low and working conditions poor. Being united and fighting for what’s right is a good place to start.

[Topgun13]

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[Cavalier44]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

[Topgun13]

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[Flyingbeluga]

I don’t believe there are that many pilots at Jazz that would be qualified to go over. There’s about 1300 pilots here right now when you discount management and those on disability. The top 600-700 aren’t interested and there’s hundreds of college kids with no ATPL.

My guess is 200 are qualified at this time.

What we will end up seeing is the pool of applicants from Jazz will be depleted by mid 2023.

From the meeting we had with the union 300 qualified pilots. That have 2000+h and applied to air canada.

[Flyingbeluga]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

What I dont get coming from the chief pilot we have enough people and that’s why they cancelled oct 11 GS. I don’t get it anymore. Who’s lying here de we have enough pilots or not?

[PostmasterGeneral]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

[Tbayer2021]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

I don't buy this at all. It may have been presented as such to the pilots when the deal was signed, but AC has never had a problem filling ground-schools without any sort of Flow agreement. This was merely a carrot to convince pilots to join Jazz as it was touted as the fastest route to AC. After all, AC knows just how crappy the deal is for a new guy at Jazz, so they needed some motivation. Many benefited while it was convenient for big red, but that was merely coincidental. It was never the main purpose. Pilots have once again have been outplayed. AC is looking out 5-10 years and beyond, while your average pilot is concerned about next month.

The 60% contractual obligation keeps on being brought up. If the last 2.5 years aren't proof enough that companies will wipe their a$$es with the contract when they deem it necessary, then prepare yourself for a career of being constantly outplayed and having the rug pull out from under you.

[negative_g]

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

I don't buy this at all. It may have been presented as such to the pilots when the deal was signed, but AC has never had a problem filling ground-schools without any sort of Flow agreement. This was merely a carrot to convince pilots to join Jazz as it was touted as the fastest route to AC. After all, AC knows just how crappy the deal is for a new guy at Jazz, so they needed some motivation. Many benefited while it was convenient for big red, but that was merely coincidental. It was never the main purpose. Pilots have once again have been outplayed. AC is looking out 5-10 years and beyond, while your average pilot is concerned about next month.

The 60% contractual obligation keeps on being brought up. If the last 2.5 years aren't proof enough that companies will wipe their a$$es with the contract when they deem it necessary, then prepare yourself for a career of being constantly outplayed and having the rug pull out from under you.

[rudder]

Update on flow from VP of flt ops today.

No Jazz pilots uptake in AC GS for October.

Additional info from JZA MEC an hour later. AC not taking JZA pilots next month to ensure block hours can be completed. 60% annual flow may not be met. JZA MEC exploring several options.

If AC is where you want to go, jump the line and go to WS, AT, Flair.

Epic fail.

When you cannot control the rate of resignations to Porter/Flair/Transat/Morningstar/CargoJet/etc, you try to control the rate of resignations to AC.

There needs to be a broader solution. This is not a plan. It is a (weak) reaction and is not sustainable.

[Fanblade]

Update on flow from VP of flt ops today.

No Jazz pilots uptake in AC GS for October.

Additional info from JZA MEC an hour later. AC not taking JZA pilots next month to ensure block hours can be completed. 60% annual flow may not be met. JZA MEC exploring several options.

If AC is where you want to go, jump the line and go to WS, AT, Flair.

Epic fail.

When you cannot control the rate of resignations to Porter/Flair/Transat/Morningstar/CargoJet/etc, you try to control the rate of resignations to AC.

There needs to be a broader solution. This is not a plan. It is a (weak) reaction and is not sustainable.

Nope,

So how do the pilot groups at Jazz and ACPA leverage this?

For the company this is simply about money. They had a retention carrot that was free. They can’t keep going with the retention carrot but also don’t want to pay anything.

That should be a non starter from both groups.

We both need raises. We should both be leveraging everything we can get our hands on. Carrots that are free to the company only benefit them.

What would be a good trade, for both groups, in exchange for AC pilots to agree to reserved numbers?

The end of four year flat pay at our end would certainly have traction. It would also help those flowing through and off the street.

What would Jazz want?

We need to start thinking this way.

But to operate this way you need to be willing to play a little chicken. You need to be less than willing to solve the companies issues without compensation. You need to think like management only so far as to understand how to leverage their problems. Not solve them for free.

Things are changing over here. Glacially, but changing.

[canadian_aviator_4]

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I think AC is being very short sighted.

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

[kiaszceski]

I don’t think it’s short-sighted. Air Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place. They need to ensure that Jazz has enough pilots on payroll to staff the Express operation. If they were to meet the 60% hiring commitment at the present time, they would be unable to staff the Express operation and would be faced with cancelling a significant number of flights, which obviously incurs a corresponding financial penalty. Faced with a choice between appeasing Jazz pilots vis—a-vis mainline hiring or keeping the airline staffed and operating, there is only one real choice.

The blame for this predicament falls squarely on Jazz management in my opinion. They should have aggressively ramped up hiring in the Spring when Air Canada did the same, but they’ve failed to do so. Now they’re caught in a staffing issue of their own making. I suspect the issue will only be compounded further as experienced Jazz pilots elect to jump ship and try their luck at other 705 operators in the hopes of making it to mainline. I’m not sure that there’s an easy solution to this one.

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

[Topgun13]

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[Ash Ketchum]

The only reason AC signed that agreement with Jazz, was it ensured a steady stream of qualified pilots to fill their ground schools when hiring was going bezerk. They've got a ton of OTS resumes to pull from now, and hiring isn't quite as frantic as it was pre-covid, so they don't need this agreement anymore.

AC doesn't care where the pilots come from, so long as they can fill ground schools.

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

I think just the seniority number at AC would keep most at Jazz.