Nasty ATC exchange

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue May 09, 2006 2:14 pm

Yep, at one point I got caught up in the ATC thing as the thread was headed that way too. EXCUSE ME!

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue May 09, 2006 3:00 pm

I opened with "Yah. Real happy people these guys." refering to the comments from one or two WJetters which AGAIN was the main focus of my thread. I also included critism of Nav Can later on but never called anybody anything....
nice try.

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Tue May 09, 2006 3:02 pm

I am wondering, I have heard the recording a couple times... correct me if I'm wrong... the AC460 pilot that ended up asking to pull the tapes is on departure, and he is being restricted altitude and speed wise to 6000 and 220-230kias... He asked if he could maybe go under the traffic (I'm imagining he sees the restricting traffic on TCAS and for some reason thinks that he could pass it)? ATC replies that both aircraft (AC460 and restricting traffic) are going the same way, so no way. AC460 pilot replies that he doesn't have the whole picture, but he figures that if they're at different flight levels his speed shouldn't be restricted, that's when ATC replies with "that's enough." ATC then clears AC460 to FL230 and not above 250 kias... now.... I'm not sure if ATC meant 250kias all the way to FL230, but I don't know... it'd be good to know what the restricting traffic was. Both lost their calm, which obviously is wrong. Now... I can see the 6000 feet restriction being detrimental for fuel consumption to the AC460, but climbing to FL230 at 250 knots would actually save fuel even though it'd just take him longer to get to his destination... I figure ATC couldn't really speed up the AC460 due to the traffic above/in front and maybe he was trying to create proper separation between them... butJust wondering if I got this picture right?

Regards,
DNB

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Tue May 09, 2006 3:06 pm

tonysoprano wrote:I don't consider myself neither arrogant nor an asshole but it seems there is a group here who automatically group us in those terms everytime there is an oppurtunity.
At any rate, I'm getting tired of typing and it's time to go put some single malt to good use. I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant!!

Good explanation Tony. No hard feelings and enjoy that single malt. I may do the same..

Cheers!

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue May 09, 2006 4:10 pm

Yah. Real happy people these guys.
-tonysoprano- circa Apr 28/2006

I've had enough of this shit.
-tonysoprano- right-a-bout-now.

Keep your eye on the radar screen dude.

jjj · Post by **jjj** » Tue May 09, 2006 4:24 pm

Tony,

you must bid reserve....... just guessing.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue May 09, 2006 4:26 pm

jjj.
Hey bro, best job there is. And after five f'kin pages of this bullshit, they wonder why pilots and controllers can't agree.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue May 09, 2006 5:25 pm

here's a post for ya

Harley#2 · Post by **Harley#2** » Tue May 09, 2006 5:34 pm

I worked with "Rog" ( aka Michel Jette) for many years. I personally liked working with him because we both have a similar but somewhat unpopular style (read being flexible). Working in YZ terminal is not an easy job, in order to move traffic to the approval level of the pilots on your frequency you also have to restrict the service to those not on your frequency. When you are being given your runway of choice regardless of departure volume someone is burning fuel waiting to go. When there is a "deal" regarding separation no one wants to tell you about what a great job you did cutting unnecessary track time and expediting traffic for the previous 59 minutes..they just want to cover their ass by burning you for not following "procedures" for the last minute of a busy arrival or departure hour. In spite of some of the boneheads who like to dump on Toronto (and there are some legitimate complaints which I would like to address later) I can assure you there are some pilots who can't fly their airplane, read back a clearance or appear to pay attention when we are going like a one legged ass kicker, that make us work harder than necessary. In many years of controlling I have yet to see one of our big critics who think they are ATC experts, compliments of a couple of decades of being led around the sky by their nose, show up..plug in beside me and watch what I do and then offer some advice on what I'm doing wrong so that I can improve and therby avoid being considered pretty much an "international joke".

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue May 09, 2006 5:49 pm

Murray

It appears to me that you created your profile just to stir the pot unnecessarily. Tony hit the nail on the head as this thread was created to throw mud at AC pilots and we all know it. It starts at Clive and works it's way down.

This unfortunate incident should never have happened but it did. Both parties were a little less then professional in how they attempted to solve their little drama, so give it a rest..

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue May 09, 2006 6:45 pm

Harley#2

As you well know AC operates throughout the world and its pilots are exposed to multi different ATC environments every day. Some facilities are excellent; others require a lot more work. It doesn’t help the industry when both the rules and money are subject to political whim.

There are also controllers that strive for excellence, well others stress themselves out either due to the rules that they are compelled to follow or they just can’t cut it. Pilots are not that much different. We all have to learn to problem solve in a more amiable fashion.

By the way in my experience Canadian ATC is not an international joke but Canadians always like to dump on anything Canadian..pity

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue May 09, 2006 7:34 pm

I would guess alot of YYZ problems are not due to poor controllers, but a poor system that they need to work in.

Squid · Post by **Squid** » Tue May 09, 2006 8:08 pm

the three amigos spun it into a westjet vs air can thread..nice work but you guys have your heads so far in the clouds it's not funny. "Clive all the way down", you sound threatened rebel. I think the topic was how an ass of an AIR CANADA pilot acted. who cares who posted it and said stuff. grow some skin and act your age. yours truly, a brother in baby blue and a red leaf, squid. off to work to put a few more MELs on the new bird!

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Tue May 09, 2006 8:23 pm

tonysoprano wrote:time to go put some single malt to good use. I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant!!

you'd be a fool to drink blended! Cheers!

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Tue May 09, 2006 8:31 pm

Four1oh wrote:I don't care who that pilot worked for, I think he was being a dick. It just so happens he's an AC guy. So what? We all know there's 'dicks' in every department in every company. I'll be the first to admit that WJ isn't exempt either.
cheers.

I'll just quote this again so none of you AC types think that I'm involved in any of this Hatin' AC stuff.

Here's a kleenex rebel, wipe that snot off your upper lip.

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Tue May 09, 2006 9:19 pm

I've read MURRAY's posts on other forums and even exchanged PM's with him over the years; I can assure you he knows YYZ ATC well.

(Rebel, your WestJet slamming is just pathetic and immature, join the ranks of Blastor if you wish but from what I can see, no one but you really cares which airline was in this pissing match)

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed May 10, 2006 2:51 am

WJ700 wrote: (Rebel, your WestJet slamming is just pathetic and immature, join the ranks of Blastor if you wish but from what I can see, no one but you really cares which airline was in this pissing match)

Really, how little you know or are willing to acknowledge. Pray tell when has Clive given an interview and not bashed AC? When has RM ever referred to WJ in a derogatory fashion? It appears to me that the WJ crowd feels very inadequate when it comes to AC otherwise why all the animosity towards AC?

You knew exactly what you were doing when you started this thread, try being accountable or is it a culture thing?

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed May 10, 2006 2:57 am

Squid wrote:, a brother in baby blue and a red leaf, squid. off to work to put a few more MELs on the new bird!

Squid

Don’t flatter yourself, you’re not my AC brother, you need a lot more experience and maturity then what you’ve shown on this forum to join my club.

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:03 am

Rebel wrote:
WJ700 wrote: (Rebel, your WestJet slamming is just pathetic and immature, join the ranks of Blastor if you wish but from what I can see, no one but you really cares which airline was in this pissing match)

Really, how little you know or are willing to acknowledge. Pray tell when has Clive given an interview and not bashed AC? When has RM ever referred to WJ in a derogatory fashion? It appears to me that the WJ crowd feels very inadequate when it comes to AC otherwise why all the animosity towards AC?

You knew exactly what you were doing when you started this thread, try being accountable or is it a culture thing?[/quo

...and what do comments of an airline CEO have to do with me exactly?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:20 am

The word culture comes to mind.

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:55 am

tonysoprano wrote:The word culture comes to mind.

You mean this culture? I still don't see how that relates to me posting a weblink from live ATC on Avcanada....

“There's no doubt that the rest of corporate Canada is noticing WestJet's culture. In a study released last fall, Waterstone Human Capital Ltd. and Canadian Business magazine surveyed 107 Canadian business executives. They voted WestJet as the most admired corporate culture in the country in 2005.”

Full article:

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/co ... op+stories

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Wed May 10, 2006 9:00 am

WJ700.
Whatever your motives were for starting the thread I cannot be sure as I don't know you and I should appoligize for judging someone I don't know. One thing is for sure though, it didn't take some WJ guys (and others) long to jump in and do what we at AC are a little tired of which is the bashing. I think what Rebel is trying to say is that there is a growing group at WJ that is getting on a high horse and put down AC at every oppurtunity they get. This is not much different from what Clive seems to do at every oppurtunity he has in front of a microphone or the media. This is what I mean by culture. That culture in turn spreads like a virus beyond WJ as you have witnessed on this forum. So perhaps the next time there is a similar thread to start, you might give it some thought. AC employees have a long tradition of being "spoiled" by working for such a big place which, despite it all has enjoyed a great deal of success and worldwide reputation. Being a big place we have our share of different personalities, good and bad. But whoever we are, we will not sit silently while getting accused of something we are not. As for the real topic between ATC and the pilot, both need learn a thing or two or they will not enjoy the rest of their careers.

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Wed May 10, 2006 9:38 am

tonysoprano wrote:WJ700.
Whatever your motives were for starting the thread I cannot be sure as I don't know you and I should appoligize for judging someone I don't know. One thing is for sure though, it didn't take some WJ guys (and others) long to jump in and do what we at AC are a little tired of which is the bashing. I think what Rebel is trying to say is that there is a growing group at WJ that is getting on a high horse and put down AC at every oppurtunity they get. This is not much different from what Clive seems to do at every oppurtunity he has in front of a microphone or the media. This is what I mean by culture. That culture in turn spreads like a virus beyond WJ as you have witnessed on this forum. So perhaps the next time there is a similar thread to start, you might give it some thought. AC employees have a long tradition of being "spoiled" by working for such a big place which, despite it all has enjoyed a great deal of success and worldwide reputation. Being a big place we have our share of different personalities, good and bad. But whoever we are, we will not sit silently while getting accused of something we are not. As for the real topic between ATC and the pilot, both need learn a thing or two or they will not enjoy the rest of their careers.

Hi Tony,

I'm not about to start keeping count but I think if you look at the time wasted on most of these internet forums you'll find an equal number of people slamming AC as they do WestJet; that's just someone's choice to take by someone hiding behind an annoymous handel. My opinion on what has been said by Clive is that its just a roll played similar to what Herb K did at Southwest (AKA named the mouth of the South) and used when taking on carriers in the US and promoting LUV stock. That's all Clive is doing, promoting his stock.

At http://forum.aeforum.net the same topic (and not posted by me) has not turned in to a WJ/AC bashing thread... but probably in part because Rebel doesn't have viewing a password to it.

Looking back, I'd still post this because the complaint that Rebel has is more to do with where I work rather than what's involved in the recording.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:13 am

Rebel wrote:
WJ700 wrote: When has RM ever referred to WJ in a derogatory fashion?

Well, until Westjet sued him, it was every other day in the newspapers, but since then, he's stfu, something you should think of doing you jackass. On second thought, keep it coming, it's entertaining.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:21 am

Four1oh wrote:
Rebel wrote:
WJ700 wrote: When has RM ever referred to WJ in a derogatory fashion?
Well, until Westjet sued him, it was every other day in the newspapers, but since then, he's stfu, something you should think of doing you jackass. On second thought, keep it coming, it's entertaining.

Hmm I sort of expected that type of comment coming from you. It must be hard to keep the facts straight in your little mind...I wonder what's next? Oh I know WJ has to pay AC $200 big ones for corporate espionage.

Nasty ATC exchange

hmmmm