Put me down as another that disagrees with groupboard.
The POH was written for a reason. Follow it. Your procedure for a touch and go is incorrect (the 172). T&G is a take-off (the go part).
Mcrit has taken the torch from all of us. But he is right.
Incompetent instructor?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
I found that a lot of people get confused with overshoot with touch and go.
Normal touch and go
PA28 - Flaps up, Full power
C172 - Flaps up, Full power
Overshoot
PA28 - Full power, Retract Flaps in stages
C172 - Full power, Flaps 20, Positive ROC, Flaps up
I've seen both warrior and c172 taking off with full flap. (not touch and go)
so it is possible, but would you do that everytime against POH because it is possible?
the purpose of having instructor is to learn the correct procedures for every stages of the flight, otherwise you will get your pilots licence just like your driver's license.
Normal touch and go
PA28 - Flaps up, Full power
C172 - Flaps up, Full power
Overshoot
PA28 - Full power, Retract Flaps in stages
C172 - Full power, Flaps 20, Positive ROC, Flaps up
I've seen both warrior and c172 taking off with full flap. (not touch and go)
so it is possible, but would you do that everytime against POH because it is possible?
the purpose of having instructor is to learn the correct procedures for every stages of the flight, otherwise you will get your pilots licence just like your driver's license.
-
groupboard
- Rank 1
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:58 pm
We aren't discussing touch and go's here. As I have said a couple of times, I spoke to a number of CFIs and who pointed out the correct procedure (flaps fully up while still on the ground, then full power), and I'm happy with that.BTD wrote:Put me down as another that disagrees with groupboard.
The POH was written for a reason. Follow it. Your procedure for a touch and go is incorrect (the 172). T&G is a take-off (the go part).
Mcrit has taken the torch from all of us. But he is right.
The issue we are talking about is whether a warrior or 172 will climb with 2 stages of flap. A warrior certainly will, as the POH specifies 2 stages of flap for a short-field takeoff. For the 172, is the overshoot procedure not to wait for a "positive rate of climb" before retracting the remaining 20 degrees of flap? I didn't think it was to "arrest the descent".
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
A few other things that are far to common among pilots, especially new ones.
Using brakes to control speed while taxiing and not reducing power.
Their inability to maintain a constant climb attitude because they airspeed chase rather than use outside reference for attitude information. That of course is due to poor instruction caused by their being introduced to using instruments for attitude reference and control before they learn to use outside visual reference to control the airplane.
A lot of this sloppy flying results from poor attitude and movements training and understanding of attitudes and movements and how to produce and control same in their first few hours of instruction.
The failure to allow the airplane airspeed increase to the desired speed after the climb before reducing power, and failure to properly stabalize flight with trim....
...and of course the missuse, and failure to understand the signifigance of trim to assist in maintaining any given flight attitude...
Those are a few glaring examples of poor training by far to many instructors who obviously are victims of poor training themselves.
Cat
Using brakes to control speed while taxiing and not reducing power.
Their inability to maintain a constant climb attitude because they airspeed chase rather than use outside reference for attitude information. That of course is due to poor instruction caused by their being introduced to using instruments for attitude reference and control before they learn to use outside visual reference to control the airplane.
A lot of this sloppy flying results from poor attitude and movements training and understanding of attitudes and movements and how to produce and control same in their first few hours of instruction.
The failure to allow the airplane airspeed increase to the desired speed after the climb before reducing power, and failure to properly stabalize flight with trim....
...and of course the missuse, and failure to understand the signifigance of trim to assist in maintaining any given flight attitude...
Those are a few glaring examples of poor training by far to many instructors who obviously are victims of poor training themselves.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
. ._
- Top Poster
- Posts: 7374
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:50 pm
- Location: Cowering in my little room because the Water Cooler is locked.
- Contact:
You mean it's possible to pass a flight test within tolerances without chasing the airspeed?Cat Driver wrote: Their inability to maintain a constant climb attitude because they airspeed chase rather than use outside reference for attitude information. That of course is due to poor instruction...
If it means the difference between passing or failing a flight test, I'll yank that plane around to keep it in tolerance till the examiner throws up, by God! Well, that's how I got my Commercial Multi-IFR, anyways.
Now I'll learn how to fly properly.
Let us know when the Cub is ready, Cat. ISTP Flies With Cat Driver- THAT would make a great story!
-istp
-
mellow_pilot
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:04 am
- Location: Pilot Purgatory
ISTP
Are you trying to bait the cat?
I understand completely what Cat was stating.
Power plus attitude equals performance. The airspeed will lag when you make a pitch change. If you hold a constant attitude it will stabalize and then you can make a final correction. If you start chasing it you will be pitching up and down continually....that is not good airmanship.
If I remember, Attitudes and Movements is the first flight lesson. and , as I think Cat was trying to point out, one of the most important. Learn to pitch up to a reference point on your windscreen, hold that and the airspeed will settle..then adjust. same procedure.
I still cant believe you would actually advocate chasing the AS needle.
Are you trying to bait the cat?
I understand completely what Cat was stating.
Power plus attitude equals performance. The airspeed will lag when you make a pitch change. If you hold a constant attitude it will stabalize and then you can make a final correction. If you start chasing it you will be pitching up and down continually....that is not good airmanship.
If I remember, Attitudes and Movements is the first flight lesson. and , as I think Cat was trying to point out, one of the most important. Learn to pitch up to a reference point on your windscreen, hold that and the airspeed will settle..then adjust. same procedure.
I still cant believe you would actually advocate chasing the AS needle.
-
mellow_pilot
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:04 am
- Location: Pilot Purgatory
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cat's to straight up old school to deal with your mullet-wearing, hippy-machinist ways ISTP.
Yup, chillern ah sure is...
I really enjoy most of you guys here and am quite sure that a lot of you experiment with my suggestions when you fly, just to find out if maybe my advise will make you better pilots.
Being straight up old school makes one an aviator rather than a pilot, which means that you strive for perfection and never quit learning.
Remember if you are going to fly anything having a good grasp of the basics is priceless.
Always trying to better your own performance may someday save your life.
Then someday you may be able to ask top dollar for sharing what you have learned.....
...so, yeh, I'm old school and proud of it.
And as a bonus, I can fly the newest technology stuff because I have been trained on same...funny thing about that was some of my fly by computer think instructors couldn't fly the basic stuff...
Anyhow I gotta go and register for the Power Squadron course, I'm going to be a seafarer now and slow down for a while.
Cat
Cat's to straight up old school to deal with your mullet-wearing, hippy-machinist ways ISTP.
Yup, chillern ah sure is...
I really enjoy most of you guys here and am quite sure that a lot of you experiment with my suggestions when you fly, just to find out if maybe my advise will make you better pilots.
Being straight up old school makes one an aviator rather than a pilot, which means that you strive for perfection and never quit learning.
Remember if you are going to fly anything having a good grasp of the basics is priceless.
Always trying to better your own performance may someday save your life.
Then someday you may be able to ask top dollar for sharing what you have learned.....
...so, yeh, I'm old school and proud of it.
And as a bonus, I can fly the newest technology stuff because I have been trained on same...funny thing about that was some of my fly by computer think instructors couldn't fly the basic stuff...
Anyhow I gotta go and register for the Power Squadron course, I'm going to be a seafarer now and slow down for a while.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I’d place a bet that new pilots would have better basic flying skills (stick & rudder) if they were NOT allowed to see any of the flight instruments for the first couple of hours. There are only two things on the dash that you cant figure out from looking out side or by “feel“.
They are: oil temperature and oil pressure.
They are: oil temperature and oil pressure.
I like to bring the good old post it notes on the first few flights with students. I just have to make sure I clean them up.
You need to cover the instruments up. New students think that if they don't look at them they'll end up in some crazy attitude and aside from that the students are sitting right in front of the instruments. I catch myself looking at the instruments a lot more when sitting on the left just because they are there. Sitting on the right its easy to monitor the engine but all the flying is outside.
and groupboard
BTD
You need to cover the instruments up. New students think that if they don't look at them they'll end up in some crazy attitude and aside from that the students are sitting right in front of the instruments. I catch myself looking at the instruments a lot more when sitting on the left just because they are there. Sitting on the right its easy to monitor the engine but all the flying is outside.
and groupboard
groupboard wrote: Also, the cessna 172 POH specifies only retracting 1 stage of flap on the runway for a touch-and-go.
It appears you were talking about T&Gsgroupboard wrote: We aren't discussing touch and go's here.
BTD
If your instructor only said "it won't climb with 25 degrees of flaps" I'd bet a million dollars he meant it wouldn't climb good enough, or that there's no good reason not to get max climb out of it. If you hadn't noticed, things are often simplified (maybe oversimplified) in flight instruction to make sure the point is driven home. If he'd said "with 25 degrees of flap deflection, the aircraft will climb at a vertical speed as low as three fifths of the possible climb rate available with the flaps retracted," I would have tuned his ass out around word #3, I'm flying an airplane. And many other students would just nod along, afraid to mention that they have no idea what their instructor just said. If you learn better with more articulate discussion, let him know. That's the kind of thing that will help his ability to teach you.
Will a 172 climb with a 20 degree flap takeoff? Of course. Will it climb 400 lbs overweight? At a low enough field, sure. A guy at boundary bay took off in a 172 with both 20 degrees flap and 400 lbs more weight than gross, his plane climbed -- it climbed just high enough to kill his 3 passengers after he stalled it by desperately raising the nose trying to get a better climb. There are reasons they keep things simple, so that everyone definitely understands a safe way to fly for the time being.
To add to that, one of the things the CFI at my school always says is "we're not teaching you to fly a cessna, we're using a cessna to teach you how to fly." My point being: maybe he's just trying to instill good practice on a general scale, something you can take away from your training. It's like that in almost every field - learn the basic ideas first then go onto more specific knowledge.
edit to add: if you're on a touch and go, on the runway, in a 172, 20 feet in front of you = .2 seconds away from you. uh oh!
Will a 172 climb with a 20 degree flap takeoff? Of course. Will it climb 400 lbs overweight? At a low enough field, sure. A guy at boundary bay took off in a 172 with both 20 degrees flap and 400 lbs more weight than gross, his plane climbed -- it climbed just high enough to kill his 3 passengers after he stalled it by desperately raising the nose trying to get a better climb. There are reasons they keep things simple, so that everyone definitely understands a safe way to fly for the time being.
To add to that, one of the things the CFI at my school always says is "we're not teaching you to fly a cessna, we're using a cessna to teach you how to fly." My point being: maybe he's just trying to instill good practice on a general scale, something you can take away from your training. It's like that in almost every field - learn the basic ideas first then go onto more specific knowledge.
edit to add: if you're on a touch and go, on the runway, in a 172, 20 feet in front of you = .2 seconds away from you. uh oh!
Last edited by square on Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Justwannafly
- Rank 8
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: Cyberspace
edit..sorry double post....
Last edited by Justwannafly on Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Justwannafly
- Rank 8
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: Cyberspace
CAT what if a groupboard were to walk out 20' infront of you....would you clear him?Cat Driver wrote: " If something pops up 20' in front of you on t/o and you aren't going over it unless you are already at rotation speed. "
The only thing that a warrior or C172 is going to clear in twenty feet after lift off is the fuc.ing runway center line paint stripes.....
Now if you were doing a touch and go in a helicopter you could easily clear a deer or a cow or an idiot twenty feet in front of you such as this one who has wound everyone up here.
Cat...
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Keep it simple.
Explain the flight controls on the ground.
Take the student to the practice area and teach them attitudes and movements.
The only instrument that is brought to their attention at this stage is the air speed indicator and only to demonstrate that with a change in pitch attitude comes a change in airspeed....
Have the student look at the horizon and its positon in relation to the nose of the aircraft.
Demonstrate as follows....
When we move the control collum backward note that the nose rises in relation to the horizon and note the airspeed decreases....
When we move the control collum foward, note that the nose goes down in relation to the horizon and note that the airspeed increases....
...this movement you see is the pitching movement and is produced and controlled by the elevators,...
No other reference to instruments is needed at this stage as they must be programmed to use outside reference for attitude recognition..
Ideally there should only be the very basic flight instruments avaliable for a new student to reference...Airspeed....Altimiter...turn corordinator /turn and bank.......
..the ball is the only part of the TC/T&B that they need understand at this stage.
With that method of initial training you will not turn out airspeed chasers who roller coaster through the sky, and they will fly without slip or skid in the turns because you taught them to keep the ball centered...
Cat
Explain the flight controls on the ground.
Take the student to the practice area and teach them attitudes and movements.
The only instrument that is brought to their attention at this stage is the air speed indicator and only to demonstrate that with a change in pitch attitude comes a change in airspeed....
Have the student look at the horizon and its positon in relation to the nose of the aircraft.
Demonstrate as follows....
When we move the control collum backward note that the nose rises in relation to the horizon and note the airspeed decreases....
When we move the control collum foward, note that the nose goes down in relation to the horizon and note that the airspeed increases....
...this movement you see is the pitching movement and is produced and controlled by the elevators,...
No other reference to instruments is needed at this stage as they must be programmed to use outside reference for attitude recognition..
Ideally there should only be the very basic flight instruments avaliable for a new student to reference...Airspeed....Altimiter...turn corordinator /turn and bank.......
..the ball is the only part of the TC/T&B that they need understand at this stage.
With that method of initial training you will not turn out airspeed chasers who roller coaster through the sky, and they will fly without slip or skid in the turns because you taught them to keep the ball centered...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
cat driver wrote:
"Ideally there should only be the very basic flight instruments avaliable for a new student to reference...Airspeed....Altimiter...turn corordinator /turn and bank.......
..the ball is the only part of the TC/T&B that they need understand at this stage."
Makes it easy to teach attitudes & movements in our aircraft. Just have ASI, ALT, and inclinometer. No AI, HI, or TC.
groupboard wrote:
"Regarding the 172: yes, it is not recommended to take-off with 2 stages of flap. However, it is incorrect to state that you will not climb with 2 stages of flap on a 172. The 172 POH states that when commencing an overshoot you should remove one stage of flap, and only remove the rest when you have attained a positive rate of climb. Why would the POH say this if you will not climb with 2 stages of flap?"
When commencing an overshoot in the 172 it states to reduce flaps to 20 degrees immediately after full power is applied. Removing "one stage" of flap would be 30 degrees.
"Ideally there should only be the very basic flight instruments avaliable for a new student to reference...Airspeed....Altimiter...turn corordinator /turn and bank.......
..the ball is the only part of the TC/T&B that they need understand at this stage."
Makes it easy to teach attitudes & movements in our aircraft. Just have ASI, ALT, and inclinometer. No AI, HI, or TC.
groupboard wrote:
"Regarding the 172: yes, it is not recommended to take-off with 2 stages of flap. However, it is incorrect to state that you will not climb with 2 stages of flap on a 172. The 172 POH states that when commencing an overshoot you should remove one stage of flap, and only remove the rest when you have attained a positive rate of climb. Why would the POH say this if you will not climb with 2 stages of flap?"
When commencing an overshoot in the 172 it states to reduce flaps to 20 degrees immediately after full power is applied. Removing "one stage" of flap would be 30 degrees.
-
bob sacamano
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1680
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:26 am
- Location: I'm not in Kansas anymore
-
TC Aviator
- Rank 1
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:17 am
- Location: Canada
Don't argue with a competent instructor
Hey All,
Cat Driver is absolutely correct on all counts expressed in this forum. Ab initio training today could learn a lot from the training practices of yesteryear.
I also agree that a properly managed "flat-rate" PPL or CPL training program would be a win, win for all concerned.
Cat Driver is absolutely correct on all counts expressed in this forum. Ab initio training today could learn a lot from the training practices of yesteryear.
I also agree that a properly managed "flat-rate" PPL or CPL training program would be a win, win for all concerned.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
See everyone.....
......Not everyone in Ottawa who identify themselves as TC are bad people, in fact most are just like us with the exception that for personal reasons they choose to be in TC.
...this last poster reinforces my beliefe that all is not lost...
remember we have CD....TC Guy ...now TC Aviator.
Bye Thunderin Jeeses, things are getting better.
Cat
......Not everyone in Ottawa who identify themselves as TC are bad people, in fact most are just like us with the exception that for personal reasons they choose to be in TC.
...this last poster reinforces my beliefe that all is not lost...
remember we have CD....TC Guy ...now TC Aviator.
Bye Thunderin Jeeses, things are getting better.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Hello, All...
I promised Cat to get some information on the proposed changes for the Seaplane Rating in Canada.
As I stated before, last summer, a group of aviation professionals (experienced float instructors and operators from the BC coast, as well as the two certification superintendants from TC) were asked to participate in a Risk Analysis of the current and proposed changes (see below) to the requirements.
Interestingly enough, some also had ideas that there should be a recreational float endorsement, and a professional one. Each would have different minimum experience. Some favored a flight test requirement. These ideas were included in the final report sent to Ottawa.
The proposal is:
1) Minimum instructor requirements (250 float requirement w/out a flight instructor rating, 200 floats required with)
2) Minimum 10 hours of dual experience
3) Removal of the solo requirement
...there has been no response from Ottawa as of yet-- this means that the requirements will not be changing any time soon. The CARAC takes a while. I am still new to this process, but I have found its speed to be predictable: DEAD SLOW.
Hope this helps!
-Guy
I promised Cat to get some information on the proposed changes for the Seaplane Rating in Canada.
As I stated before, last summer, a group of aviation professionals (experienced float instructors and operators from the BC coast, as well as the two certification superintendants from TC) were asked to participate in a Risk Analysis of the current and proposed changes (see below) to the requirements.
Interestingly enough, some also had ideas that there should be a recreational float endorsement, and a professional one. Each would have different minimum experience. Some favored a flight test requirement. These ideas were included in the final report sent to Ottawa.
The proposal is:
1) Minimum instructor requirements (250 float requirement w/out a flight instructor rating, 200 floats required with)
2) Minimum 10 hours of dual experience
3) Removal of the solo requirement
...there has been no response from Ottawa as of yet-- this means that the requirements will not be changing any time soon. The CARAC takes a while. I am still new to this process, but I have found its speed to be predictable: DEAD SLOW.
Hope this helps!
-Guy
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
I get completely mesmerized with acrynoms and CARAC means about as much to me as the formula to explain how the universe was formed.
I would hazzard a guess they make rules?
If so who is involved in this group, are they a seperate department with their own work force or are they made up of people with other duties?
And why does it take so long to accomplish something that could be done in a matter of hours?
Here in Nanaimo they build complete shopping malls in a matter of months.
Do these people actually show up at work every day or just at random times and find the others are not there so they just go back home?
What in fu.k do these people do for their paychecque?
Anyone here have any idea who this group are and what this group does?
Ho, Christ it just dawned on me, I bet these are the experts that put together CARS.....
I'll be dead before anything understandable comes out of that group if that is what CARAC stands for.
Thankfully I personally don't give a fu.k about doing sea plane ratings so the problem only impacts the FTU's
By the way does one or more of those guys own an insurance business......
Cat
I would hazzard a guess they make rules?
If so who is involved in this group, are they a seperate department with their own work force or are they made up of people with other duties?
And why does it take so long to accomplish something that could be done in a matter of hours?
Here in Nanaimo they build complete shopping malls in a matter of months.
Do these people actually show up at work every day or just at random times and find the others are not there so they just go back home?
What in fu.k do these people do for their paychecque?
Anyone here have any idea who this group are and what this group does?
Ho, Christ it just dawned on me, I bet these are the experts that put together CARS.....
I'll be dead before anything understandable comes out of that group if that is what CARAC stands for.
Thankfully I personally don't give a fu.k about doing sea plane ratings so the problem only impacts the FTU's
By the way does one or more of those guys own an insurance business......
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Ramp Monkey YYJ
- Rank 1
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:13 pm
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
