Pilot Hiring 2025

[CFM Symphony]

When’s the last time wings have fallen off any airplane? That has nothing to do with the fact that hiring low time pilots increases training costs with higher failure rates, increased fuel burns due to unstable approaches because they don’t know how to slow down a jet?

It’s a different world above 4000’. Let them get used to world up to 25000’ for a year before letting them Up to FL410

Oh I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. You meant terrifying for the accountants who have to square the additional cost of training.

Look, you’re correct. Canada’s system was not designed to handle European, Asian and until not too long ago American style Cessna to Airbus type of training. But then say that, rather than saying “terrifying” and then backpedaling to claim that your concern had to do with training costs rather than safety.

I’m not backpedaling. I said what I said. You’re the one who assumed that i was mentioning it as a safety concern. Which means it’s already on your mind.

We shouldn’t be putting thousand hour wonders in right seats of any 705 machines. Regardless of the reasoning. FAA got it right, at least on this.

So your only concern, which you found “terrifying” was with how Flair will pay for the additional training required and not regarding safety. You acknowledge that Europe conducts more training, which by definition is more expensive, yet in a Canadian context you find additional training costs terrifying. So, even if I take your explanation of what you implied with your single word answer, this paradox contradicts that.

[Instructor01]

Will March Interviewee hear back anytime soon?

[Me262]

When’s the last time wings have fallen off any airplane? That has nothing to do with the fact that hiring low time pilots increases training costs with higher failure rates, increased fuel burns due to unstable approaches because they don’t know how to slow down a jet?

It’s a different world above 4000’. Let them get used to world up to 25000’ for a year before letting them Up to FL410

Oh I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. You meant terrifying for the accountants who have to square the additional cost of training.

Look, you’re correct. Canada’s system was not designed to handle European, Asian and until not too long ago American style Cessna to Airbus type of training. But then say that, rather than saying “terrifying” and then backpedaling to claim that your concern had to do with training costs rather than safety.

I’m not backpedaling. I said what I said. You’re the one who assumed that i was mentioning it as a safety concern. Which means it’s already on your mind.

We shouldn’t be putting thousand hour wonders in right seats of any 705 machines. Regardless of the reasoning. FAA got it right, at least on this.

Thank goodness. Without FAA doing it right, planes would be crashing left and right in the US and Canada. I mean look at Europe, going from Cessna to A320 within 200hrs and upgrading to ATPL from the right seat, they have so many incidents over there. Far from safe flying in US/Canada thanks to the FAA over the past few months.

...

Oh wait!

[fish4life]

Oh I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. You meant terrifying for the accountants who have to square the additional cost of training.

Look, you’re correct. Canada’s system was not designed to handle European, Asian and until not too long ago American style Cessna to Airbus type of training. But then say that, rather than saying “terrifying” and then backpedaling to claim that your concern had to do with training costs rather than safety.

I’m not backpedaling. I said what I said. You’re the one who assumed that i was mentioning it as a safety concern. Which means it’s already on your mind.

We shouldn’t be putting thousand hour wonders in right seats of any 705 machines. Regardless of the reasoning. FAA got it right, at least on this.

Thank goodness. Without FAA doing it right, planes would be crashing left and right in the US and Canada. I mean look at Europe, going from Cessna to A320 within 200hrs and upgrading to ATPL from the right seat, they have so many incidents over there. Far from safe flying in US/Canada thanks to the FAA over the past few months.

...

Oh wait!

What you aren’t taking into account is the very different training regime.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m not backpedaling. I said what I said. You’re the one who assumed that i was mentioning it as a safety concern. Which means it’s already on your mind.

We shouldn’t be putting thousand hour wonders in right seats of any 705 machines. Regardless of the reasoning. FAA got it right, at least on this.

Thank goodness. Without FAA doing it right, planes would be crashing left and right in the US and Canada. I mean look at Europe, going from Cessna to A320 within 200hrs and upgrading to ATPL from the right seat, they have so many incidents over there. Far from safe flying in US/Canada thanks to the FAA over the past few months.

...

Oh wait!

What you aren’t taking into account is the very different training regime.

Exactly. These cadets get multi crew training at a very young point compared to the stupid power off 180s that commercial pilots need to do at a commercial level in Canada. All good tho me262. Let’s be open to other ways of thinking.

Let’s talk about the fixed card ADF circling approaches. What’s the formula again MH+RB=BTS? I’m probably wrong cuz we don’t actually have a way to tune an NDB on my plane.
Who the hell cares. TCs training curriculum still thinks LORAN-C is current.

[flying4dollars]

Oh I’m sorry, I misunderstood you. You meant terrifying for the accountants who have to square the additional cost of training.

Look, you’re correct. Canada’s system was not designed to handle European, Asian and until not too long ago American style Cessna to Airbus type of training. But then say that, rather than saying “terrifying” and then backpedaling to claim that your concern had to do with training costs rather than safety.

I’m not backpedaling. I said what I said. You’re the one who assumed that i was mentioning it as a safety concern. Which means it’s already on your mind.

We shouldn’t be putting thousand hour wonders in right seats of any 705 machines. Regardless of the reasoning. FAA got it right, at least on this.

Thank goodness. Without FAA doing it right, planes would be crashing left and right in the US and Canada. I mean look at Europe, going from Cessna to A320 within 200hrs and upgrading to ATPL from the right seat, they have so many incidents over there. Far from safe flying in US/Canada thanks to the FAA over the past few months.

...

Oh wait!

You might want to research the training programs those cadets go through compared to ours, then maybe edit your post. There is a reason it works there.

[Me262]

I’m not backpedaling. I said what I said. You’re the one who assumed that i was mentioning it as a safety concern. Which means it’s already on your mind.

We shouldn’t be putting thousand hour wonders in right seats of any 705 machines. Regardless of the reasoning. FAA got it right, at least on this.

Thank goodness. Without FAA doing it right, planes would be crashing left and right in the US and Canada. I mean look at Europe, going from Cessna to A320 within 200hrs and upgrading to ATPL from the right seat, they have so many incidents over there. Far from safe flying in US/Canada thanks to the FAA over the past few months.

...

Oh wait!

You might want to research the training programs those cadets go through compared to ours, then maybe edit your post. There is a reason it works there.

We have 250hrs CPL holders in the right seat of 705 operations in Canada, that's a fact. So you are telling me these pilots, who reach 1500 hrs, 1250hrs on type, will be terrible captains UNLESS they go rent a 152 and do another 100hrs of pure circuits and 50hrs of 25NM "circuits"?? (hrs are aproximate, could be 50 and 100 25NM "circuits" depending how they managed their XC). Because by TC standards, that's all they need to do to be "worthy" now to hold a ATPL. That 152 PIC must make or break making them a good pilot after 1000+hrs of Dash 8, CRJ, 175 or biz jet. Heck they could have 2000 or 3000 on type before deciding to upgrade because they didn't feel ready or they like their schedule. But NOPE, not having 150hrs of 152 PIC time it's dangerous for them to hold a ATPL

[flying4dollars]

Thank goodness. Without FAA doing it right, planes would be crashing left and right in the US and Canada. I mean look at Europe, going from Cessna to A320 within 200hrs and upgrading to ATPL from the right seat, they have so many incidents over there. Far from safe flying in US/Canada thanks to the FAA over the past few months.

...

Oh wait!

You might want to research the training programs those cadets go through compared to ours, then maybe edit your post. There is a reason it works there.

We have 250hrs CPL holders in the right seat of 705 operations in Canada, that's a fact. So you are telling me these pilots, who reach 1500 hrs, 1250hrs on type, will be terrible captains UNLESS they go rent a 152 and do another 100hrs of pure circuits and 50hrs of 25NM "circuits"?? (hrs are aproximate, could be 50 and 100 25NM "circuits" depending how they managed their XC). Because by TC standards, that's all they need to do to be "worthy" now to hold a ATPL. That 152 PIC must make or break making them a good pilot after 1000+hrs of Dash 8, CRJ, 175 or biz jet. Heck they could have 2000 or 3000 on type before deciding to upgrade because they didn't feel ready or they like their schedule. But NOPE, not having 150hrs of 152 PIC time it's dangerous for them to hold a ATPL

Where in my post did you interpret me saying 250hr Canadian CPL holders will be terrible captains at 1500 hours? Where did you interpret me saying anything in your reply??

[Me262]

You might want to research the training programs those cadets go through compared to ours, then maybe edit your post. There is a reason it works there.

We have 250hrs CPL holders in the right seat of 705 operations in Canada, that's a fact. So you are telling me these pilots, who reach 1500 hrs, 1250hrs on type, will be terrible captains UNLESS they go rent a 152 and do another 100hrs of pure circuits and 50hrs of 25NM "circuits"?? (hrs are aproximate, could be 50 and 100 25NM "circuits" depending how they managed their XC). Because by TC standards, that's all they need to do to be "worthy" now to hold a ATPL. That 152 PIC must make or break making them a good pilot after 1000+hrs of Dash 8, CRJ, 175 or biz jet. Heck they could have 2000 or 3000 on type before deciding to upgrade because they didn't feel ready or they like their schedule. But NOPE, not having 150hrs of 152 PIC time it's dangerous for them to hold a ATPL

Where in my post did you interpret me saying 250hr Canadian CPL holders will be terrible captains at 1500 hours? Where did you interpret me saying anything in your reply??

You said the training program of those cadets are better, or so I deduced, for them to get A320 at 200hrs in the right seat. We now have, in Canada, 250hrs minimum required, to fly in right seat of 705 (not quite a A320 but CRJ, 175, etc, altough nothing stops AC or WJ to pick those up on their A220/320/737, if we have another 2019 boom)

Then we have the old dinosaur mentality on this forum how people did 5000hrs before they even sat on the right seat of a 705 operation, or even 704. Meanwhile we have a captain shortage at all companies that is not AC/WJ/Porter where people generally hang their hat.

[cdnavater]

We have 250hrs CPL holders in the right seat of 705 operations in Canada, that's a fact. So you are telling me these pilots, who reach 1500 hrs, 1250hrs on type, will be terrible captains UNLESS they go rent a 152 and do another 100hrs of pure circuits and 50hrs of 25NM "circuits"?? (hrs are aproximate, could be 50 and 100 25NM "circuits" depending how they managed their XC). Because by TC standards, that's all they need to do to be "worthy" now to hold a ATPL. That 152 PIC must make or break making them a good pilot after 1000+hrs of Dash 8, CRJ, 175 or biz jet. Heck they could have 2000 or 3000 on type before deciding to upgrade because they didn't feel ready or they like their schedule. But NOPE, not having 150hrs of 152 PIC time it's dangerous for them to hold a ATPL

Where in my post did you interpret me saying 250hr Canadian CPL holders will be terrible captains at 1500 hours? Where did you interpret me saying anything in your reply??

You said the training program of those cadets are better, or so I deduced, for them to get A320 at 200hrs in the right seat. We now have, in Canada, 250hrs minimum required, to fly in right seat of 705 (not quite a A320 but CRJ, 175, etc, altough nothing stops AC or WJ to pick those up on their A220/320/737, if we have another 2019 boom)

Then we have the old dinosaur mentality on this forum how people did 5000hrs before they even sat on the right seat of a 705 operation, or even 704. Meanwhile we have a captain shortage at all companies that is not AC/WJ/Porter where people generally hang their hat.

Let me know if you can spot the difference between the Europe program and a commercial pilot licence in Canada!
There;
Course Outline
Phase 1: Theoretical Knowledge Training

Learn everything about ATPL related theory in 14 subjects
Classroom and computer-based training
Approximately 750 hours
Location: Madrid, Spain
Phase 2: Foundation Flight Training

Learn how to fly solo in a single-engine piston aircraft
Aircraft and simulator training
Upset Prevention & Recovery Training (UPRT)
Approximately 145 hours
Perform your Commercial Pilot License (CPL) Skill Test
Location: Fair weather training location
Phase 3: Advanced Flight Training

Learn how to fly using instruments on a multi engine piston aircraft
Aircraft and simulator training
Approximately 55 hours
Perform your Multi-Engine Instrument Rating (MEIR) Skill Test
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Phase 4: Multi-Crew Cooperation (MCC)/Jet Orientation Course (JOC)

Learn how to fly as a member of a professional airline cockpit crew
Classroom and Flight Simulator Training
Approximately 48 hours
Obtain your MCC/JOC certificate and A320 Type rating
Location: Madrid, Spain / Barcelona, Spain

Here;

CPL Hours Breakdown

The Commercial course consists of 65 hours of flight training and 80 hours of ground school. The break-down includes a Night Endorsement and VFR-over-the-Top.

35 hours of dual instruction:
5 hours of X-Country
20 hours of instrument time.
5 hours dual night
30 hours of solo flight time
25 hours of general practice, including airwork, and radio communication
5 hours solo night
Straight line cross country of at least 300 nautical miles with landings at 3 airports other than the departure airport
A minimum of 80 hours ground school. Including instruction on Air Law, Meteorology, Navigation, and General Knowledge.
A Transport Canada Written and Flight test is required

[flying4dollars]

We have 250hrs CPL holders in the right seat of 705 operations in Canada, that's a fact. So you are telling me these pilots, who reach 1500 hrs, 1250hrs on type, will be terrible captains UNLESS they go rent a 152 and do another 100hrs of pure circuits and 50hrs of 25NM "circuits"?? (hrs are aproximate, could be 50 and 100 25NM "circuits" depending how they managed their XC). Because by TC standards, that's all they need to do to be "worthy" now to hold a ATPL. That 152 PIC must make or break making them a good pilot after 1000+hrs of Dash 8, CRJ, 175 or biz jet. Heck they could have 2000 or 3000 on type before deciding to upgrade because they didn't feel ready or they like their schedule. But NOPE, not having 150hrs of 152 PIC time it's dangerous for them to hold a ATPL

Where in my post did you interpret me saying 250hr Canadian CPL holders will be terrible captains at 1500 hours? Where did you interpret me saying anything in your reply??

You said the training program of those cadets are better, or so I deduced, for them to get A320 at 200hrs in the right seat. We now have, in Canada, 250hrs minimum required, to fly in right seat of 705 (not quite a A320 but CRJ, 175, etc, altough nothing stops AC or WJ to pick those up on their A220/320/737, if we have another 2019 boom)

Then we have the old dinosaur mentality on this forum how people did 5000hrs before they even sat on the right seat of a 705 operation, or even 704. Meanwhile we have a captain shortage at all companies that is not AC/WJ/Porter where people generally hang their hat.

I did not even make that statement either. You literally put words in my mouth. I simply said go research their training programs. They are different than ours.

[WillieStroker]

What are you guys even fighting over?

We have a very similar program in the military with 200 hour dudes going into the C17, the A310/330, the CF18, etc.

(It costs 2 mil to wings and 5 mil to FO equivalent, and 3-5 years of training with a wash-out rate nearing 50%).

I don't think Flair can stomach half that cost, but Emirates/Qatar/Etihad/Cathay/insert chinese airline sure can.

I get the frustration, but cadet programs exist at 150k... thats the closest civilian version in Canada.

Be good to each other guys.

[Me262]

What are you guys even fighting over?

We have a very similar program in the military with 200 hour dudes going into the C17, the A310/330, the CF18, etc.

(It costs 2 mil to wings and 5 mil to FO equivalent, and 3-5 years of training with a wash-out rate nearing 50%).

I don't think Flair can stomach half that cost, but Emirates/Qatar/Etihad/Cathay/insert chinese airline sure can.

I get the frustration, but cadet programs exist at 150k... thats the closest civilian version in Canada.

Be good to each other guys.

Make it 150hrs (20 Grob - if they still do that; 80 Harvard; 50 King Air) to wings, and yes, 200hrs-ish after OTU. With a whole bunch of 5-7 PIC time! When you upgrade to AC, guess (not for you but for everyone else on this forum) how many PIC time you have? Still 5-7hrs!! Yes, that's less than 10. And a TT of less than 1000hrs.

Civis and Transport live in a bubble of what makes a good pilot. Apparently TC thinks bombing in a 152 doing circuits for another 150hrs after you get your CPL is what's crucial to be a AC on a Dash.