CBC coverage- Pilot’s frustrated ATC rant

[Stu Pidasso]

That particular Captain said on the PA, what most Pilots think. The PA shouldn't be used as a soap box, but that is my opinion.

Last year at the "Take Your Kid to Work Day" there was the usual tour of the VR Tower. During the tour the Controller announced the following to the group of grade 9 kids.

"Take a look around, no one in this room made under $400,000 last year"

So that puts a VFR Tower Controller out earning 99.9999% of Professional Pilots in this Country.

You're comparing a controller's salary with a substantial amount of OT with a pilot's base salary. No shortage of pilots picking up every OT pairing they can and cracking 400k.

777 / 330 / 787 SENIOR Captains at Air Canada, that is a very small percentage of Professional Pilots in Canada. Nav Canada should be eliminated for what they have allowed to happen in Canadian Aviation. 400K for a VFR Tower controller is obscene.

[nvcatc]

777 / 330 / 787 SENIOR Captains at Air Canada, that is a very small percentage of Professional Pilots in Canada. Nav Canada should be eliminated for what they have allowed to happen in Canadian Aviation. 400K for a VFR Tower controller is obscene.

They're working 8 days on, 1 day off to do that. Pretty sure flight crews don't work that many hours.

[16SidedOffice]

777 / 330 / 787 SENIOR Captains at Air Canada, that is a very small percentage of Professional Pilots in Canada. Nav Canada should be eliminated for what they have allowed to happen in Canadian Aviation. 400K for a VFR Tower controller is obscene.

They're working 8 days on, 1 day off to do that. Pretty sure flight crews don't work that many hours.

Exactly, and while overtime isn't mandatory they are doing it to keep the place operating and not leave their coworkers dangerously short staffed. If there was anywhere near enough staff those numbers would be way down.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

They're working 8 days on, 1 day off to do that. Pretty sure flight crews don't work that many hours.

There were Rouge pilots making over $400k years ago but they also had to work pretty hard for it.

If the Tower controllers making that much money are the same people training the new staff I can see a strong financial motivation to not help them succeed in their roles. That is top 1% income.

[Tbayer2021]

That particular Captain said on the PA, what most Pilots think. The PA shouldn't be used as a soap box, but that is my opinion.

Last year at the "Take Your Kid to Work Day" there was the usual tour of the VR Tower. During the tour the Controller announced the following to the group of grade 9 kids.

"Take a look around, no one in this room made under $400,000 last year"

So that puts a VFR Tower Controller out earning 99.9999% of Professional Pilots in this Country.

You're comparing a controller's salary with a substantial amount of OT with a pilot's base salary. No shortage of pilots picking up every OT pairing they can and cracking 400k.

777 / 330 / 787 SENIOR Captains at Air Canada, that is a very small percentage of Professional Pilots in Canada. Nav Canada should be eliminated for what they have allowed to happen in Canadian Aviation. 400K for a VFR Tower controller is obscene.

Senior AC wide body captains are far from the only ones breaking 400k. I've seen T4s under Westjet's old contract over 400k. I've met sunwing and transat pilots who have shown me they've done the same.

I think you dont realize some pilots spend every day off they can picking up premium trips. Just like these controllers making over 400.

[Daniel Cooper]

100 flights cancelled one day this week because of no controllers.

https://vancouversun.com/news/vancouver ... nav-canada

[goingnowherefast]

At what point does this become a legal liability for NavCanada? Airlines can pawn it off as uncontrollable ATC delays and not pay compensation. I wonder if/when passengers will start taking NavCanada to court to recoup incurred costs?

[newlygrounded]

At what point does this become a legal liability for NavCanada? Airlines can pawn it off as uncontrollable ATC delays and not pay compensation. I wonder if/when passengers will start taking NavCanada to court to recoup incurred costs?

I assumed the whole point of selling off the entire air traffic network to a private company was so they could rapidly respond to a changing market, this has been going on for years now with no fix in sight!

[Dry Guy]

HR departments are ruining the country.

[TeePeeCreeper]

HR departments are ruining the country.

You mean like the HR department that once deemed you to be a good fit?

[CaptDukeNukem]

You mean the flight ops department that said to HR: “we need pilots so hire pilots.”

Sure HR was involved but really they weren’t. They’re involved after the fact.

But thinking that HR departments run airlines… crazy.

[CaptDukeNukem]

HR departments are ruining the country.

Don’t say it so loud. HR might have heard you.

[AV80R]

You can't criticize HR ladies like you couldn't criticize immigration. Until suddenly you could. Trust me, they're next for people to notice their negative impact. Nav Canada has an HR problem if guys are making $400k and they can't get anyone to fill those roles.

[altiplano]

But thinking that HR departments run airlines… crazy.

The VP of HR runs the biggest airline in this country... seriously.

[newlygrounded]

You can't criticize HR ladies like you couldn't criticize immigration. Until suddenly you could. Trust me, they're next for people to notice their negative impact. Nav Canada has an HR problem if guys are making $400k and they can't get anyone to fill those roles.

As an outsider looking in, the prospect of moving to shithole lake sounded ok, but hearing about trainees getting fired after years of being on the job and having to get out of the industry scared off a lot of people. The application process is also a joke, but I don't know where to point that finger.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You can't criticize HR ladies like you couldn't criticize immigration. Until suddenly you could. Trust me, they're next for people to notice their negative impact. Nav Canada has an HR problem if guys are making $400k and they can't get anyone to fill those roles.

As an outsider looking in, the prospect of moving to shithole lake sounded ok, but hearing about trainees getting fired after years of being on the job and having to get out of the industry scared off a lot of people. The application process is also a joke, but I don't know where to point that finger.

Always point the finger as high as you can raise it, then trickle down till someone blinks. That’s the guy who knows WTF is wrong.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Are there diversity initiatives at NavCanada at all? According to a whistleblower in the US they have created a lot of staffing problems.

Pearson said the strain on air traffic controllers began during the Obama administration.

"DEI ideologues ... decided that the color of the controller was more important than the competency of the controller," he said. "This happened in 2011 through 2014. So the 3,000 to 3,500 air traffic controllers that we need, and we've needed for over 10 years, are directly related to and correlated to the disastrous policy of the Obama administration."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/fo ... crisis.amp

[co-joe]

We are at least a little to blame here. During covid when the airliners were all parked and crews laid off, we screamed and cried that Navcanaca was still charging service fees to the airlines, so in turn Navcan fired all their trainees and gave retirement incentives to cut costs. They still haven't recovered to the staffing levels we had pre covid, but air travel has grown substantially.

[lostaviator]

Maybe we can learn a thing or two from them and start failing new hires out of training to protect our OT!

Of course that has been the rumor around navcan checkouts/evaluations for years now. No idea if it is true or not, but I did know one trainee who thought everything was going great (no negative feedback, "you're doing great"), and then it was just "See you later!". If this is the way things are done (the guy you're going to be taking money from is the one doing your check), they really need to look at how their training is run.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Maybe we can learn a thing or two from them and start failing new hires out of training to protect our OT!

Of course that has been the rumor around navcan checkouts/evaluations for years now. No idea if it is true or not, but I did know one trainee who thought everything was going great (no negative feedback, "you're doing great"), and then it was just "See you later!". If this is the way things are done (the guy you're going to be taking money from is the one doing your check), they really need to look at how their training is run.

Deleted due to a re-post below.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

This may have been the way things were done in the past, but the training culture has changed. If a trainee is struggling, they are afforded multiple avenues to assist. These could consist of:
- Instructor change, either at the request of the student, the instructor or the supervisor if they see things aren't working out.
- Extra cycles/days to work on sub-standard items that have no consequence on the rest of training. Once the deficiency is rectified, the training program picks up where it left off.
- External performance coaching. I had a student who was struggling and was given access to an external performance coach and performance psychologist (both paid for by NavCanada). My student was working with them once per week and he said it definitely helped with his performance and mental health.

Here's some examples:

At my tower, the training program is around 140 days of training. One student got 90%-95% of the way to qualification then hit a roadblock. He was given an OJI change for a fresh start and new perspective as well as another 30 days of training for him to focus on that one area he was struggling with. After the 30 days, he qualified and is now a good controller. He'll be doing his OJI course soon and become an instructor himself.

I know another controller who was at one of the major towers and almost made it to the end of training, but they weren't successful; It was too much to handle as their first posting. The company still saw potential in them and sent them to a smaller tower where they got a license. A couple years later, they bid to go IFR and they were successful there as well.

Maybe there are a few units left out there where training is looked down on or people want to get as much O/T as possible. But at many units, the OJI's and training teams bend over backwards to give a student every chance at success. Unsuccessful students are often given a second shot at another unit if the potential is there.

For those who are unsuccessful, it's easier on their ego to rationalize their result as an institutional problem rather than their own performance.

[lostaviator]

Maybe we can learn a thing or two from them and start failing new hires out of training to protect our OT!

Of course that has been the rumor around navcan checkouts/evaluations for years now. No idea if it is true or not, but I did know one trainee who thought everything was going great (no negative feedback, "you're doing great"), and then it was just "See you later!". If this is the way things are done (the guy you're going to be taking money from is the one doing your check), they really need to look at how their training is run.

This may have been the way things were done in the past, but the training culture has changed. If a trainee is struggling, they are afforded multiple avenues to assist. These could consist of:
- Instructor change, either at the request of the student, the instructor or the supervisor if they see things aren't working out.
- Extra cycles/days to work on sub-standard items that have no consequence on the rest of training. Once the deficiency is rectified, the training program picks up where it left off.
- External performance coaching. I had a student who was struggling and was given access to an external performance coach and performance psychologist (both paid for by NavCanada). My student was working with them once per week and he said it definitely helped with his performance and mental health.

Here's an example. At my tower, the training program is around 140 days of training. One student got 90%-95% of the way to qualification then hit a roadblock. He was given an OJI change for a fresh start and new perspective as well as another 30 days of training for him to focus on that one area he was struggling with. After the 30 days, he qualified and is now a good controller. He'll be doing his OJI course soon and become an instructor himself.

Maybe there are a few units left out there where training is looked down on or people want to get as much O/T as possible. But at many units, the OJI's and training teams bend over backwards to give a student every chance at success.

Thanks for that. It's nice to hear that training culture we have heard about for years is changing. It is no doubt a challenging job and one that isn't meant for everyone, it was always the stories like the one you mentioned where someone was 95% of the way there, and then shown the door. All that time and those training resources spent on getting someone to that point, it's nice to hear they have founds ways to get them to 100%.

[16SidedOffice]

it was always the stories like the one you mentioned where someone was 95% of the way there, and then shown the door.

Event's like those are VERY very rare in reality. There's far more success stories in qualifications that no one hears about. It's the vocal minority that feel the need to stand on their soap box about how good they thought they were doing but if you heard it from the other side you'd probably change your thinking on it.

[newlygrounded]

it was always the stories like the one you mentioned where someone was 95% of the way there, and then shown the door.

Event's like those are VERY very rare in reality. There's far more success stories in qualifications that no one hears about. It's the vocal minority that feel the need to stand on their soap box about how good they thought they were doing but if you heard it from the other side you'd probably change your thinking on it.

I have a friend who did FSS in Ontario, moved far away and then after a year of being there was given the boot. I'd think twice before applying for nav especially as it takes fucking 2 years to even hear back after applying!

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I have a friend who did FSS in Ontario, moved far away and then after a year of being there was given the boot. I'd think twice before applying for nav especially as it takes fucking 2 years to even hear back after applying!

When I applied about 10 years ago, it was 12 months to the day from the date I applied online to the first day of ATC training. I believe the timelines are much shorter now because the company realized they were losing quality applicants with how long the hiring process took.

I also didn't get paid during basic training and only got paid once done my basic course. I also actually had to pay $6,000 of my own money for ATC basic training. I was able to reclaim some of that back as tuition on my taxes, but it still hurt. Now, students are paid $56,000+ from day one, going up to $58,000 next year. That's quite an amazing improvement from 10 years ago. There are full-time pilots working at FTU's and 703 operators making less than that, and those pilots already have their license. Heck, I don't even think JZA F/O's make that much.

Again, the company isn't perfect. Name me one that is. But, they're putting in a concerted effort to streamline hiring, encouraging people with a decent trainee salary and giving them many more supports than when even I started only 10 years ago.