Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

Dominic220 · Post by **Dominic220** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:03 pm

"It never ceases to amaze me to watch pilots do simple things ass backwards such as control taxi speed with brakes rather than power and once airborne climb like a rocking chair because they are air speed needle chasers due to never understanding the lag factor in the airspeed indicator. "

...I don't know if you're joking or not there Cat... I mean, really, how hard is the concept of "oshi- I'm going too fast... let's not destroy the brakes 200hrs before they need to be changed by going full throttle and braking... why wouldn't I bring the power back? Equally, pitch for climb, not pitch for A/S. wind gusts can screw students over royally; pitch for what you want and leave it there. The gusts will go away. But I can't tell if that was rhetorical, or serious...

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:33 pm

Students follow their instincts untill they are trained/convinced to do otherwise. Anyone who's ever driven thinks 'I'm going too fast I should hit the brakes' Some you can teach out of it some you can't without a LOT of hours and frustration, especially if they've had lax instruction already. Those are the really tough ones 'cuz they might be able to control their instincts when things are good but when things go to crap (which if you have five hours under your belt can mean coming to the end of the taxiway with a bit too much speed) many will act before thinking.

Keep in mind there are absolutely no prerequisites to getting a licence - they don't need to be able to read or rub their tummy and pat their head at the same time. And for the record I consider the second skill more valuable for pilots.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:58 am

Good for the instructor to make more money. Isn't this what every instructed ever wanted?

For those who don't agree with the pay, then don't pay for it.

If I go shopping for something, and I find that it's too much, I simply don't get it.

Niss, pay a bit more and maybe you'll be taught how to spin.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:27 am

Perhaps I am cruel by nature, but when I see someone decide to save a few bucks on flight training, and then wrecks their airplane due to a clear lack of pilot skill, well ... it's hard to feel sorry for them.

I do hope that the few dollars they saved was worth it, writing off their very expensive aircraft.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:28 am

" ...I don't know if you're joking or not there Cat..."

Why would I joke about something like this?

I mean, really, how hard is the concept of "oshi- I'm going too fast... let's not destroy the brakes 200hrs before they need to be changed by going full throttle and braking... why wouldn't I bring the power back?

That is exactly my opinion, why do some PPL's use brakes to control taxi speed and never pull the throttle back to idle?

Equally, pitch for climb, not pitch for A/S. wind gusts can screw students over royally; pitch for what you want and leave it there. The gusts will go away. But I can't tell if that was rhetorical, or serious...

Once again why would I bother to type about something that does not annoy me?

Far to many PPL's were never properly taught attitudes and movements by using " only " outside reference and they spend to much time looking at the instrument panel and thus become airspeed chasers.

Their instructors had to have been delinquent in recognizing this bad habit, or more likely they were ignorant of how to teach flying period.

niwre · Post by **niwre** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:45 am

question....
ive seen this off and on again about we should get paid more becuase its dangerous.... some say it is or is not.... whatever

Then why have we allowed the insurance companies to lable this a dangerous job. I once tried to get life insureance and strike one was that I am a pilot, strike two is that I am an instructor and up my rates go.

RSPs was the better choice.

I dont consider myself a dangerous pilot, I have people who have confidence in my abilities that I will not endanger my students or PAX. Sure there are "hazards" and some US figures put Aviation in the top 3 regularly (at the time I look the numbers up I could not find Canadain numbers) for "dangerous jobs".

Flame on....

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:08 am

Hey niwre, the insurance companies work on statistics and I guess that statisitically pilots are more likely to buy it at an early age.

As for the other theme in the thread, "Why are PPLs riding the brakes?", they do this because they have heard a myth; "You must keep your power at 1000RPM" On most light trainers if you keep this amount of power you will be taxiing way to fast. The fact of the matter is that you can use any power setting you need (including dead idle) to maintain speed. Now, when the a/c is sitting somewhere not moving (ie waiting for t/o) then you what to set the power at 1000.
Also, another point, lean your mixture when you taxi. It really helps to prevent foul plugs. Lean your mixture when you are in cruise. It saves gas and prevents foul plugs.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:13 am

Now, when the a/c is sitting somewhere not moving (ie waiting for t/o) then you what to set the power at 1000.

Yup - I might even suggest 1100 rpm and fully leaned mixture, to try to keep the bottom plugs clean.

I go full lean on the ground immediately after start, and it doesn't go rich until immediately before takeoff (eg with xponder, pitot heat, etc).

As mcrit says, you should lean any time you're not at full power (eg cruise to/from practice area). Heck, even with full power, you want to lean if you're going to climb up through 3,000 feet.

At higher altitudes, you must lean before takeoff.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:15 am

As for the other theme in the thread, "Why are PPLs riding the brakes?", they do this because they have heard a myth; "You must keep your power at 1000RPM" On most light trainers if you keep this amount of power you will be taxiing way to fast.

So where are their instructors while they are taxing like that?

And where did they hear this myth?

Lean your mixture when you are in cruise.

How many instructors use carb heat when leaning?

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:19 am

Cat Driver wrote:
As for the other theme in the thread, "Why are PPLs riding the brakes?", they do this because they have heard a myth; "You must keep your power at 1000RPM" On most light trainers if you keep this amount of power you will be taxiing way to fast.
So where are their instructors while they are taxing like that?

And where did they hear this myth?

Lean your mixture when you are in cruise.
How many instructors use carb heat when leaning?

Ok Cat you just lost me

Why would you lean the mixture with Carb Heat Hot? when you put it back to Cold you will be running too lean.

Lurch

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:22 am

Ok Cat you just lost me

Why would you lean the mixture with Carb Heat Hot? when you put it back to Cold you will be running too lean.

Lurch

O.K. , I will reword it...

use carb heat as a final check when leaning at cruise power.

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:29 am

I know I'm gonna get yelled at for this but it's true so scream away. Aviation attracts and promotes attitudes of invincibility in everyday life. How many of us think of cars as simple compared to the planes we fly? Based on personal experience with the pilots I've known and the stats that my alumni association keeps on the whereabouts of grads, pilots have a higher than average likelyhood of crashing their cars, falling off a cliff or getting eaten by sharks. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm all for living life to the fullest and have tried aerobatics in a neon myself with suprising success

My point is just that insurance companies can't get away with saying"pilots are risk takers so we're gonna charge you and arm and a wing for insurance" Instead they use their number to justify calling our job dangerous therebye covering their butts on our recreational activites too.

Now before you get all off topic telling me about every mellow pilot you've ever known who never excedes 30km/h, and wears his parachute to bed, I'm aware that there are plenty of pilots like that, I'm just saying I believe there are more risktakers in the hangar than at an engineering firm on any given day.

K, I'm done. Rage away.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:36 am

Cat Driver wrote:
Ok Cat you just lost me

Why would you lean the mixture with Carb Heat Hot? when you put it back to Cold you will be running too lean.

Lurch
O.K. , I will reword it...

use carb heat as a final check when leaning at cruise power.

Cat my training must be lacking I am still lost

Can you please explain in detail? I will pass it on to my students.

Thanks

Lurch

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:38 am

I'm just saying I believe there are more risktakers in the hangar than at an engineering firm on any given day.

If you are saying there are more idiots that have pilots licenses than there are idiots who are mechanics I agree with you.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:40 am

happily.retired wrote:I know I'm gonna get yelled at for this but it's true so scream away. Aviation attracts and promotes attitudes of invincibility in everyday life. How many of us think of cars as simple compared to the planes we fly? Based on personal experience with the pilots I've known and the stats that my alumni association keeps on the whereabouts of grads, pilots have a higher than average likelyhood of crashing their cars, falling off a cliff or getting eaten by sharks. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm all for living life to the fullest and have tried aerobatics in a neon myself with suprising success

My point is just that insurance companies can't get away with saying"pilots are risk takers so we're gonna charge you and arm and a wing for insurance" Instead they use their number to justify calling our job dangerous therebye covering their butts on our recreational activites too.

Now before you get all off topic telling me about every mellow pilot you've ever known who never excedes 30km/h, and wears his parachute to bed, I'm aware that there are plenty of pilots like that, I'm just saying I believe there are more risktakers in the hangar than at an engineering firm on any given day.

K, I'm done. Rage away.

I think it has to do with the type of personallity that is attrated to aviation, natural risk takers. Some people love wearing a suit and attending meetings all day, I personlly would blow my brains out from boredom by the second week.

Now on our time off we resort to activities that keep the rush going.

Lurch

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:42 am

Cat my training must be lacking I am still lost

Can you please explain in detail? I will pass it on to my students.

Thanks

Lurch

I'll PM you when I get some time to type it out Lurch.

I would rather not get into a pissing contest with Canadas finest in the instructor group here because I am not one of their clique.

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:50 am

First of all we'd have to actually get along with one another before there could be a clique. Secondly, whether people are able to agree with each other or not, informed discussion of the best way to do things is always valuable. I for one would vote that something informative, that doesn't mention names, and is presented in a positive manner is better suited for a post than a PM.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:56 am

I for one would vote that something informative, that doesn't mention names, and is presented in a positive manner is better suited for a post than a PM.

Yeh, I guess you are correct.

However I have learned to be careful here on the training forum as to often my advice gets torn all to shreads because I am not a Canadian instructor, in fact I am not a Canadian as far as aviation goes.

But I'm sure there are tons of Canadas finest who understand what I was alluding to regarding leaning the mixture at cruise power.

And just to clarify my position I personally hold the Canadian flight training system in contempt.

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:01 pm

Well if Canadian planes fly different than other planes then they might have a point.

If not then we have to admit that it's just people pushing your buttons 'cuz we all know what they are, and that just makes them a bunch of seven year olds. But I don't have time to rant at them so I'll have to leave it at that.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:03 pm

I think that we now have at least five different topics being serially discussed here:

1) instructor pay
2) risk-taker
3) leaning mixture
4) carb heat
5) instructor vs non-instructor

On the subject of risk-taking and activities ... I might opine that any activity is as dangerous as the experience and skill of the person doing it.

I know a drunk who broke his back, going for the remote control. Yes, he's a pilot. Anything is dangerous, given sufficient incompetence.

Other people can participate in very "dangerous" activities, if they have the experience and skill to safely perform them.

Bottom line: some people I wouldn't let push my lawnmower. But that doesn't mean we should outlaw motorized agricultural equipment.

Should we really bring everything to the lowest common denominator, so that every idiot is safe no matter what they do?

niwre · Post by **niwre** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:08 pm

back to the original question, are higher pilot/instructor rates justified by danger or value or both...

I have had to deal with business people who know alot about business (that is extremely helpful) but about "my role" in aviation telling me what to do in the left or right seat. Ive had CPs and CFIs tell me because they made .02/hr working 100 a week that I can do it to and stop complaining about wages and find a second job.

what are your thoughts?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:08 pm

Well if Canadian planes fly different than other planes then they might have a point.

No planes fly exactly the same regardless of what part of the world they are flown in.

It is how the training industry is regulated in Canada that I am refering to.

Star'Fox · Post by **Star'Fox** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:06 pm

Can you elaborate on that Cat Driver?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:16 pm

Can you elaborate on that Cat Driver?

You want me to elaborate on why I hold TC flight training department in contempt?

Where do you want me to start?

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:45 pm

I was being a tad bit facetious there Cat.