Speaking French on the radio

[...]

...will everyone just 'shaddap' already on this topic ferphaquesakes?

you're all giving me an aneurysm of a headache!

[scopiton]

What does old english colonaies have to do with Air safety??

The opinions seemed to be based on frustration and on the fact that some have to learn a second language.

The default language is English .. so live with it.

because you said india and many other countries
So I can say in marrocco algeria & 75% of black africa and in many other countries, french is the first langage so live with french too...

[KAG]

CRM. Its beat into all our heads and how effective communication is the keystone to aviation safety. How can anyone with any flying experience argue that speaking 2 languages at the same airport could possibly be anything but a serious detriment to total SA of all involved?!
Seriously, this is not about political correctness or about the English trying to one up the French, this is about NOT KILLING PEOPLE.

Anyone who argues otherwise is allowing prejudice/pride to get in the way of the of the obvious.

Now if we want to argue about something politically incorrect, lets discuss the blatant hypocrisy about Quebec road signs…

[Chuck Ellsworth]

scopiton I hate to tell you this but the last time I was in Morocco Arabic was the official language.

Has that changed in the last couple of years?

[Benwa]

How can anyone with any flying experience argue that speaking 2 languages at the same airport could possibly be anything but a serious detriment to total SA of all involved?!

Sorry, but when 95% of the pilots flying in the area I'm flying's mother language is French... I'll speak French on the radio... for safety & SA concerns. If I hear 1 english comm in my surrondings... I'll do billingual advisories. That way I'm sure everybody get's the message. Truly sorry for all of you that don't like hearing French on the radio... but it's part of what makes Canada... well... Canadian.

Here's a sample... Traffic Bonaventure, MAX 150 (One Five Zero) King Air 100 (one hundred) 45 Miles West inbound NDB 13 Estimating Landing in 15 minutes. 45 miles à l'ouest en rapprochement pour la NDB 13, on estime l'attérissage dans 15 minutes.

Ok it's a bit longer... but it's about the same as adding the oh so annoying "Conflicting Traffic please advise MAX150 on 126.7 or 123.0"

Benwa aka Benoit

[Mône]

I would like to remind everyone that Canada elected to be a bilingual country, english AND french.

[niss]

Actually IIRC it was to get them ***EDIT/Lil*** to join confederation. Same reason we all learn francais to grade 9 and taxes pay for catholic schools. Quebec wanted to preserve their culture (and rightfully so) so it was written that we would make these sacrifices.

Thats what I remember from school anyway...***EDIT/Lil (using a racial slur or stereotype, then qualifying it by saying "somebody else called them that...I'm just repeating what they said" is still a slur or stereotype) ***

[chu me]

It is right of any pilot to receive communication at certain places in both official languages. This is spelled out in CAR 602.133. To end the argument I am posting the relevant regulations here.

DIVISION VIII - RADIOCOMMUNICATIONS

Language Used in Aeronautical Radiocommunications

602.133 English and French are the languages of aeronautical radiocommunication in Canada.

Locations Where Services Are Available in English and French

602.134 (1) Any person operating an aircraft who wishes to receive the services referred to in this section in one of either English or French shall so indicate to the appropriate air traffic control unit or flight service station by means of an initial radiocommunication in English or French, as appropriate.

(2) Every flight service station set out in Table 1 to this section and every air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section shall provide advisory services in English and French.

(3) Every air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section shall provide air traffic services in English and French.

(4) Every temporary air traffic control unit located in the province of Quebec shall provide air traffic services in English and French.

(5) Every flight service station set out in Table 2 to this section shall provide, between any person operating an aircraft and any air traffic control unit set out in Table 3 to this section, a relay service of IFR air traffic control messages in English or French, as indicated by that person.

Table 1 - Flight Service Stations where Advisory Services are Available in English and French
1. Charlo
2. Gaspé
3. Gatineau
4. Îles-de-la-Madeleine
5. Kuujjuaq
6. Kuujjuarapik
7. La Grande Rivière
8. Mont-Joli
9. Montréal
10. Québec
11. Roberval
12. Rouyn
13. Sept-Îles
14. Squaw Lake (seasonal station)
15. Val-d'Or

Table 2 - Flight Service Stations where Relay Services of IFR Air Traffic Control Messages are Available In English and French
1. Gaspé
2. Gatineau
3. Îles-de-la-Madeleine
4. Kuujjuaq
5. Kuujjuarapik
6. La Grande Rivière
7. Mont-Joli
8. Montréal
9. Québec
10. Roberval
11. Rouyn
12. Sept-Îles
13. Squaw Lake (seasonal station)
14. Val-d'Or

Table 3 - Air Traffic Control Units where Advisory Services and Air Traffic Control Services are Available in English and French
Area Control Centre
1. Montréal
Terminal Control Units
2. Bagotville
3. Montréal
4. Ottawa
5. Québec
Air Traffic Control Towers
6. Bagotville
7. Montréal International (Pierre Elliott Trudeau)
(amended 2004/02/24; previous version)
8. Montréal International (Mirabel)
9. Ottawa International (Macdonald-Cartier)
10. Québec International (Jean Lesage)
11. St-Honoré
12. St-Hubert
13. St-Jean (Province of Québec)
14. Sept-Îles

Locations Where Services Are Available in English

602.135 All air traffic control units and flight service stations shall provide aeronautical radiocommunication services in English.

So while I agree with most posters here about the use of french on the radio, I have to admit, that it is laziness on my part because I have let my french slip away and do nothing to regain it. It used to drive me crazy too, but it is perfectly legal and therefore it is not an issue of airmanship in Canada to speak french on the radio. Would it be wise to do so in Trenton N.S. or other small airport in the middle of english speaking Canada.... probably not!

There I"m done boys...... have at'er

[KAG]

Benwa, Thank you for doing bilingual reports, that’s what needs to happen more often. I try to speak some French as a courtesy and for the practice (I’m learning), but usually end up butchering it .

I personally don’t care how much French is spoken when it’s just students or locals flying out of a somespot Quebec regional, I would speak the local tongue too. But transmissions on 126.7 or if an English speaking crew flies into that airport, bilingual calls need to be made.
Now take YUL or YQB or any of the bigger Quebec airports, with multi national airlines flying into it, and there I have a problem. When French is spoken I have no idea (some at best) what is going on around me in terms of other traffic, my SA is negatively affected. Obviously there are more then a few of us who share this sentiment.

Again, this isn’t about French bashing, it’s about safety through communication.

[Ref Plus 10]

As with KAG and Benwa, I try to accomodate as best possible, I'll be the first to admit, my french is far from stellar, but if I'm flying through Quebec, and I hear french traffic, I will ATTEMPT to relay my position in both english and french, at least i know one of the position reports is correct

[Carrier]

Quote: "I would like to remind everyone that Canada elected to be a bilingual country, english AND french."

Really? Please advise when this was put to the Canadian electorate as a referendum question. The gradual encroachment of French was a series of unelected acts by the Liberal Party of Canada. Remember that the French in Canada lost the Battle of the Plains of Abraham but as a gracious gesture by the victors the losers were permitted to keep and use their own language and some of their civil law in their own province. Historically French had no standing at all in the rest of Canada. Canada should return to that original situation! We should honour the man who united Canada by declaring June 24 to be a public holiday as General Wolfe Day.

[flyinhigh]

Well I just read all 110 posts that were made previous to this so I can't remember how wrote what but first off.

Benwa, Hats off to you for doing both language transmissions.

I am against french on the radio cause frankly all I understand is Bonjur. So I wish everyone was like yourself.

You know what guys, it comes down to a very simple reality.

Jazz 2345 cleared to land 24L, and
Jazz deux, trois, quatre, cinq d'accord debarquer a la piste vingt quatre gauche (sorry if thats incorrect)

The thing is, if i've just been cleared to position on runway 24 L and hear that transmission in English I probably STOP, if that transmission is made in French...I have no idea that it's a potential hazard. And guess what, controllers aren't perfect and this is something that happens everyday...

I says pardon, all I understood is cleared to land, so now we go full flap, etc. In full config ready to land. Now a plane comes out in front of me cause I had have NO Idea what is going on.

Now Small Penguin, It shows that you are either in Training for a PPL or Just got it. It appears you have a hard on for NORDO aircraft. Do you really think that I am going to turn my RJ into a NORDO aircraft in a circuit patter at 200 knots. MMM, not likely

Second you have no clue how the airlines work do you, Yes Jazz and AC are bilingual, you say we should all learn the languages.

Well just so you know we got a YYC, and YVR base. The fine folks that are at these bases probably grew up there are mostly in there 30/40's and have never had to speak french, now one day there on reserve and crew sked calls them up to deadhead to YUL and operate a Sept-iles Overnight.

Now this crew, chances are don't understand a word of french like myself. But do you really think that we can say sorry I don't understand French so I'll just stay home tonight. If you believe that than your Dead wrong.

By saying, speak french in our province or quit flying just shows your arrogance on this and that you really don't have a clue on it.

Also just so you know I usually agree with most the topics you post on, just this one here I believe you are waaaay out in left field on it, No Offence.

Cheers

[petpad]

The gradual encroachment of French was a series of unelected acts by the Liberal Party of Canada. Remember that the French in Canada lost the Battle of the Plains of Abraham but as a gracious gesture by the victors the losers were permitted to keep and use their own language and some of their civil law in their own province....

LOL... we've got a real smart history buff here let me tell ya... this is one of the most preposterous, pompous and venimous post in this entire retarded thread. Wow... Carrier... There are not enough adjectives (in any dictionnary - French OR English or Swahili) to qualify your ignorance, hatred and stupidity.

[orbit]

Wow...getting political here....

I speak 3 languages and personally like to undestand everyone when I'm up there flying! so I feel lets pick a most common world language...would be nice like COPA set us apart fom all that political stuff back in Geneva,,,so English being the choice. it works for me no matter what country ...it's for safety sake no???
So far that being said our system is woking and I trust as evelotion of a system is always being modified and tweaked for best effeciency and safety I tust in this wonderful land of ours Canada it will be done without haste if necessary.

I think someone should officilly close this thread as it can go on forever and can get ok is getting ugly.....

Cheers

[orbit]

Pardon typo...
late for me....so corrected version....
So far that being said our system is working and I trust as evolution of a system is always being modified and tweaked for best efficiency and safety I tust in this wonderful land of ours Canada it will be done without haste if necessary.

I think someone should officially close this thread as it can go on forever and can get ok is getting ugly.....

Cheers

[Carrier]

Quote: “Its beat into all our heads and how effective communication is the keystone to aviation safety. How can anyone with any flying experience argue that speaking 2 languages at the same airport could possibly be anything but a serious detriment to total SA of all involved?!
Seriously, this is not about political correctness or about the English trying to one up the French, this is about NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Anyone who argues otherwise is allowing prejudice/pride to get in the way of the of the obvious.”

The above nicely sums up the safety aspect! Those who quote the CARs and other laws should remember that because something is legal does not make it safe or sensible. I posted the following in quotes on another forum:

“This is not just a language or local politics issue, it is also a SAFETY issue. 176 died in the crash between a BA Trident and a DC-9 on 10 September 1976. A major contributing factor to this mid-air crash was: “The controller was speaking in Croatian to the Yugoslavian plane, which meant that the Trident crew was deprived of information that might have saved their lives.”

Similar concerns have been posted on this and other boards in the past, particularly about the use of French by controllers and pilots in France. Others are unable to understand and lose situational awareness, to the detriment of safety.

There have been other crashes and near misses worldwide because of the use of other than English. Should more be deliberately risked for local political reasons or should everything reasonably possible be done to remove unnecessary risks and improve aviation safety? When it comes to aviation one’s ability in languages other than English is irrelevant as for SAFETY only English should be used worldwide in aviation.

It is a sad commentary on present day Soviet Canuckistan that political expediency takes precedence over aviation SAFETY and common sense. Having said that, I will agree with a poster above that Canadian airspace is one of the safest. However, that safety is degraded in Quebec by the use of French purely for political expediency. This can and should be remedied without delay. Flight crews, the travelling public and (as demonstrated at Lockerbie) those on the ground deserve better.

Interesting article below:
"ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLA
Between 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.
Concern over the role of language in airline accidents turned into action in 1998 when the ICAO Assembly assigned high priority to efforts to strengthen provisions concerning language requirements. Thus, in March 2003 ICAO amended Annexes 1, 6, 10 and 11 which contained the new language proficiency requirements. From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety. The emphasis is on the ability of pilots and air traffic controllers, both native and non-native English speakers, to comprehend and communicate effectively to a common standard.
The emphasis is firmly on speaking and listening abilities, and correct use of ICAO standard phraseology. ICAO standardised phraseology shall be used in all situations for which it has been specified. Only when standardised phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission, plain language shall be used. Moreover, the emphasis is on clarity, timely response and accuracy of ATC communication. Six levels of linguistic proficiency have been defined, with a minimum requirement to meet the ICAO Level 4 (operational). All pilots and controllers will be required to demonstrate proper adherence to ICAO international communication procedures. But the real emphasis is on comprehension and the ability to deal with non-standard situations. Provision is made for periodic retesting for those who cannot demonstrate Level 6 proficiency.
Article 33 of the Chicago Convention makes the international recognition of a flight crew license conditional on full compliance with all relevant ICAO Standards including language proficiency;........"

I must add that I have flown over many decades in South Africa, a country that is fully bilingual as against Canada’s purely regional use of other than English, and I never heard anyone communicating in Afrikaans. Obviously South Africans have more of a safety culture and are more responsible than Canadians! Most Canucks lack the guts to stand up for aviation safety and demand that only English be used in Canadian aviation.

Note that the use of English in aviation is not specifically anti-French. ALL other languages should not be used in aviation. Like it or not, English is supposed to be the international language of aviation and for SAFETY is the only language that should be used in aviation communications. Also, like it or lump it, English is the de facto world language of international trade and commerce.”


The last sentence above brings us to the rest of the language issue:

General Wolfe won the Battle of the Plains of Abraham at Quebec city and united Canada under English rule! The defeated French in Quebec were not evicted like the Acadians. As a GENEROUS gesture to the defeated French, they were allowed to remain and use their own language as well as English and Napoleonic law within Quebec. There is no historical case for the use of French in the rest of Canada. This is something that in recent times has been foisted upon the rest of Canada at considerable expense by the Liberal/Quebec Party.

Quebec has deliberately driven out businesses and anglophones with its language policies and deterred new businesses. Examples: Canadian Pacific Railway HQ now in Calgary, Shell Oil Canada HQ now in Calgary, Sun Life Insurance HQ now in Toronto, Ingersoll Rand plant in Ontario instead of Quebec. It then has the cheek to plead poverty and absorb vast sums of money from the rest of Canada through the Federal government equalisation payments.

As a further example of what is going on, just a few months ago I was listening to CBC Radio One profiling the case of the Irish pub in Montreal. This had been in operation for ten years. The language Nazis recently started to persecute the operators because some "signs" were not bilingual. They were not complaining about functional signs such as the way to the bogs (les shiteurs?) but wanted old metal Guinness signs that are only available in English and are hung on the walls as part of the DECOR of an IRISH pub to be bilingual English and French. They were prepared to destroy the business and the jobs that it provides over this. This is how stupid the Quebec government is!

Equalisation payments via the federal government should be eliminated. Taxpayers in productive provinces should not be required to subsidise parasite provinces that have deliberately destroyed jobs and made their businesses uncompetitive by their negative fiscal and language policies.

In addition to the above, the cost of bilingualism has been imposed upon all Canadians and has contributed to making the country less competitive. Who do you think pays for all those translators, bilingual labels, letterheads, signs, etc. The Canadian taxpayer and consumer! The message to Quebec (and some other provinces and territories) should be “Pay your way and contribute to Canada instead of being a drain on the country.”

In addition to the economic damage to Canada the imposition of the bilingual policy in recent times has effectively made employment in the federal government and military a preserve of those from Quebec, shutting out most Canadian citizens - those from other provinces - from jobs in these areas. It has made all of us pay higher taxes. It has reduced the choice of goods available to us. It has increased the cost of living for all of us. It has contributed to driving jobs to other countries.

I have no objection to Quebec Province and individual Quebecois using French as well as English AT THEIR OWN COST in Quebec (apart from aviation) but cannot support such lunacies as the pub case mentioned above. There should be no cost for any of this to the rest of Canada. Quebec residents should use English in the rest of Canada. They have to use it anyway. You can be sure that when Bombardier sells CRJs to some American air operator or railway rolling stock to New York City that negotiations and documents are in English!

Residents of Quebec should be grateful that they are there and that they are able to use French as well as English and have Napoleonic law in Quebec. Stop pushing for more and trying to make the whole country dance to and pay for strictly provincial issues.

I must add that over the years I have known many francophones from Quebec and they have all been very pleasant people. It’s similar to Americans and the USA. As individuals Americans are great and generous people but the USA is probably the most unpopular country in the world. Quebec makes the same mistakes. As a consequence it has alienated vast parts of Canada (the West particularly) and contributed to Western separatist movements such as Westfed and the Western Canada Concept.

I referred above to Canada’s reduced competitiveness, partly because of the cost of extending French outside of Quebec. Don’t take my word for it. Take a look at Tax Freedom Day on http://www.fraserinstitute.org and then do a Google search for Tax Freedom Days for different countries. It should shock you to see how uncompetitive Canada has become. Do you want Canada to be competitive or not? Do you want Canada to be reduced to the economic failed state status of somewhere like Argentina or Poland? Are you on Canada’s side or not? As others have inferred, we should all work together for the common good and stop pandering to vocal factions.

As a final observation on countries with more than one official language, to the best of my knowledge all except one have considerable internal friction between the factions and they all incur additional costs (taxes). The only country with more than one language that I have never heard problems about is Switzerland. Perhaps Canadians and their government should investigate how Switzerland manages to achieve this

It’s an unfortunate fact that in Canada any attempt to have an intelligent and sensible debate on Quebec, French language and Indian and Eskimo issues (another $9 billion pa for the so-called first nations) draws a torrent of irrational abuse!

[VRC9170]

This has to be one of the best statements on bilingualism in Canada i have read.
Perfect.
BB

[orbit]

Nicely said Carrier... looks like you have done your due diligence...I agree ....lets not get political...
I think we can now call this thread summed up!?

[flyinhigh]

Carrier, I believe you have officially ended this topic, Very nicely put.

[jetflightinstructor]

When I decided to become a pilot, I had (with pleasure) to learn english. It took me 2 months to learn the english radio communication.

Then at a certain point of my career I started working abroad, in a country where all domestic communication has to be done with the "local" language (this local language happens to be the most spoken language in the world, chinese) so I learnt it (still with pleasure), and can understand all their radio communication. It took me 6 months.

and now you guys who speak english, you are telling me that you dont want to learn the french radio communication (it would take you 1 or 2 months 1 hour a day) in a country where english and french are official languages, and where both languages are actually spoken? Well you really amaze me.

So does this mean that if one of us were born in this beautiful city : Vancouver (example), and decided to become a pilot to fly, travel, and discover the world, he will be able to use only one language? It means that if you fly regularly to quebec you wont learn french? It means that if you have to fly in germany for a long period of time you wont learn german? Well thats sad, because me I have enjoyed learning english (and others languages), and my SA is quite good where I fly.

You guys must understand something: around the world at the local airports, private owners (and sometimes domestic airlines) do speak their language. Europe, China, Russia, name it you get it. Now if you fly everyday somewhere where the pilots speak a different language at a small local airport, and at the same time you want to increase your SA, you know what you have to do. And if the place is in your own country, and this language is an official one....

But maybe we cannot ask too much to a pilot. It has became a regular job right? Why asking an airline pilot having extra skills when we only pay him 50 000$?

Travelling, discovering, learning??? no just push the button up here.

[petpad]

...safety is degraded in Quebec by the use of French purely for political expediency.

Wrong. Use of French is not a safety issue in Quebec and it has nothing to do with political expediency.

From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety.

Sure, but this has little to do with Quebec at all. Lets go listen to IFR traffic in Vancouver in 25 years and see if we can understand the foreign crews better than today.

Obviously South Africans have more of a safety culture and are more responsible than Canadians

False. Africa - North South East or West - has the worst aviation safety record in the WORLD.

Most Canucks lack the guts to stand up for aviation safety and demand that only English be used in Canadian aviation

False. They dont demand it because most Canucks are not bigots.

...blah blah General Wolfe won the Battle of the Plains of Abraham at Quebec city ... blah blah.. defeated French in Quebec were not evicted ... blah blah... were allowed to remain and use their own language... blah blah

Irrelevant. Anyone who continues to bring up the Plains of Abraham to support their argument is out of touch with the reality of today. We are debating the use of French in the air in 2008, not why and how Quebec was won or lost.

Quebec has deliberately driven out businesses and anglophones with its language policies and deterred new businesses.. blah blah etc

Off topic. Rant.

Taxpayers in productive provinces should not be required to subsidise parasite provinces that have deliberately destroyed jobs and made their businesses uncompetitive by their negative fiscal and language policies.

Bigotry, hatred. You're making a statement about how you feel about Quebec in Canada - nothing about aviation safety.

“Pay your way and contribute to Canada instead of being a drain on the country.” ... "...when Bombardier sells CRJs to some American air operator or railway rolling stock to New York City that negotiations and documents are in English!

Agreed on the English f... but dont you think Bombardier has contributed to the Canadian economy in a little way? (and not only Quebec). Again, you're on a rant.

Residents of Quebec should be grateful that they are there and that they are able to use French

Well thank you on their behalf (I dont reside in Quebec by the way); quebecers should send a yearly thank you card to Buckingham Palace with your remarks in quotes.

I must add that over the years I have known many francophones from Quebec and they have all been very pleasant people

No!!?? Really? you must be kidding... I cant believe that! Aren't they all poutine-eating, chain-smoking love-making French-swearing peasants who abuse the rest of Canada!?! You cant possibly have met ONE that you liked?

As a consequence it has alienated vast parts of Canada (the West particularly) and contributed to Western separatist movements such as Westfed and the Western Canada Concept.

No?! You are a westerner? I could never have guessed.

As others have inferred, we should all work together for the common good and stop pandering to vocal factions.

Realy? Can you re-read your entire post?

OK enough of this... I borrowed Cat-drivers's famous technique of quoting various parts... thanks to CD for that. CD is also against French in the air but at least he's not a bigot. I also ask the moderators to close this thread.

[YCL Boy]

Like i said before, if you Red Necks would spend half the time you waste on this forum
at learning a few words in french, then according to yourself the sky would be safer.
But then again bitching on this forum is a lot more fun and easier for some of you guys,
then actually learning 12 words in french.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

CD is also against French in the air but at least he's not a bigot.

I do not recall ever saying that I am against French in the air.

I do recall on many occasions saying that having flown for many years in Quebec I managed to do so without getting stressed because I do not speak French.

In a perfect world everyone would use the same language and the language problem would not exist, and there can be no doubt that using a common language is safer for all regardless of where we fly.

Oh I forgot I also flew for a French employer for about six years commuting to France and I had no problem with flying and hearing French as spoken there at times although English was the common language for aviation in France.

[F,D and H]

I am undoubtedly bias, because my first language is English. But the international language for aviation is English, is it not? If it were something else, then I guess I'd have some extra learning to do.

Not quite sure how I feel about having both on the radio here, but if someone were to be speaking French, I couldn't help but feel out of the loop... as we all know situational awareness is key to everyone's safety.

True. And nicely said.

At the same time, how would you deal with that? You are from "quebec" (or insert any country you want), you are 50 years old, you dont speak english, you speak "french", you have just bought a C150 and passed your PPL. You want to fly at "quebec city" airport. What would you do? Fly or not?

Be careful here... I agree with what you say. I just want to remind to Xlent the complexity of the world, and that the fact to be arrogant is just being part of the problem, not the solution

That's not what he's asking...

Specifically he was asking whether or not domestic airline guys in the terminal should be allowed. Air France doesn't and can't as far as I understand.

[F,D and H]

I would like to remind everyone that Canada elected to be a bilingual country, english AND french.

Switzerland is trinligual, fly into the international in Geneva and try speaking German, Italian or French and see what happens