1300 People Killed, 5400 Injured in Occupied Palestine

[bob sacamano]

There was no sign of a ceasefire on the seventh day of the conflict, in which at least 424 Palestinians have been killed and 2,000 wounded. Four Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rockets.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 1620090102

[niss]

I would like to know what everyone on this board would do?

Gaza was taken over by Hamas in a bloody coup and is now the de-facto leadership in the territory. Hamas is vowed to the destruction of Israel and is using its military wing to launch attacks against Israel proper from their territory.

What would you do as the Israeli government? What would your solution be?

[Inverted2]

I would like to know what everyone on this board would do?

Gaza was taken over by Hamas in a bloody coup and is now the de-facto leadership in the territory. Hamas is vowed to the destruction of Israel and is using its military wing to launch attacks against Israel proper from their territory.

What would you do as the Israeli government? What would your solution be?

Why not put yourself in a Palestinians shoes? You basically live in a large prison. Id be a little pissed off too, wouldn't you?

No one really seem to be helping them. Israel is given billions in financial and military aid every year.

//fascist edits by Sully

I don't see how a few homemade rockets vs. an F-16 or Apache helicopter is a fair fight, do you?

[niss]

I would like to know what everyone on this board would do?

Gaza was taken over by Hamas in a bloody coup and is now the de-facto leadership in the territory. Hamas is vowed to the destruction of Israel and is using its military wing to launch attacks against Israel proper from their territory.

What would you do as the Israeli government? What would your solution be?

Why not put yourself in a Palestinians shoes? You basically live in a large prison. Id be a little pissed off too, wouldn't you?

No one really seem to be helping them. Israel is given billions in financial and military aid every year.

//fascist edits by Sully

I don't see how a few homemade rockets vs. an F-16 or Apache helicopter is a fair fight, do you?

If those few hundred home made rockets are being launched towards cities and the F-16 is attacking the people responsible for launching the rockets then yes it is a fair fight.

But you didnt answer my question, what would you do if you were Israel?

[trey kule]

What would you do as the Israeli government? What would your solution be?

Nike the bastards!!!! no wait...the world would not accept that....Starve them instead, and let them die of diseases without medical aid. Destroy their morale through curfews and imposition of military rule......

Seriously, it is good question, Niss, and one that seems to be troubling some of those other countries in the middle east.
But it is a little more complicated that a simple bloody coup by Hasmas. I would suspect Hamas is getting converts by the day.

I wish I had the answer, not that it would help in any way. I do however think there are two issues the Israeli government needs to face, and that is the reaction they are getting to all the propoganda they are putting out...And it is propaganda, not news. The second is that this solution is not going to solve the problem, and I think they are well aware of that. This is about exercising sovereignity through massive force. The use of the rockets is, to be truthful, a wasteful exercise as it has given Israel the excuse to invade and destroy. Kind of like baiting the bear, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps Iran or Syria wants to draw Israel into a war or finally get the US to stop funding the Israeli war machine. A very complicated situation.

[Hedley]

fair fight

What is this, grade school?!

[Rockie]

Cause and effect.

Goad a vastly superior military into a shooting war then the results are fairly predictable and should come as a surprise to no one.

[C-GGGQ]

THank you hedley and rockie, thats the point i'm trying to get across. War is not fair. As I said in my earlier post Gaza might (and well does) have a legitimate beef. I'm not pro israel or pro palestine I don't care. THe fact is if you have a legitimate beef and want to start a war, make sure you can win. DOn't just lob a few hundred rockets injured tens of people (still horrible aim if you ask me each rocket should have killed tens bringing the toll to 3000-6000) Make a stretegy (a workable one) plan your attack and bide your time until you can win.

[Dex]

I would like to know what everyone on this board would do?

Gaza was taken over by Hamas in a bloody coup and is now the de-facto leadership in the territory. Hamas is vowed to the destruction of Israel and is using its military wing to launch attacks against Israel proper from their territory.

What would you do as the Israeli government? What would your solution be?

If peace with the Palestinians were my prime importance?

Cease construction of and disband the illegal settlements, retreat to 1967 borders, be instrumental in the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state; including financing, sharing technology, etc. The violence would not stop immediately, obviously, but it is the first step in a long process. The international community could call upon an armed peace (?) force to help maintain order for a few years. Obviously American forces could not be present.

I could go on and on with solutions but you know as well as I; Israel will not be dismantling, or even ceasing the construction of, the illegal settlements any time soon. Not without severe pressure from the international community. Until this happens the results are predictable and foreseeable. The unfortunate part being innocent Israelis and Palestinians being terrorized and killed.

[Dex]

Yea, but I don't remember Goliath having an automatic rifle and a tank.

I think automatic rifles and tanks are penciled in the Third Testament.

[habit]

BOB Sacamano

the fact you are saying what is happening to HAMAS is worse than what the NAZIS did to Jewish populations has exposed the kind of fool that you really are, do you really think in your pathetic head that it is even comparable? if the answer is yes, you are indeed a person in need of education on what happened during WW2, supporting terrorism is one thing but downplaying the NAZIS evil is in an completley different spectrum. you need serious help


I have also noticed in most, not all but most of the posts supporting Hamas and their actions, a definite anti-semite undertone to the language. I am not Jewish myself but this racism has no place on this forum,

PS Israel is far from an innocent victim in this conflict but HAMAS is the instigator of this current situation and people stating the fight is not fair are absolutely ridicuolous, what should Israel do in response fire their own rockets at random into Gaza hoping they kill Hamas leaders. no they have set targets and use their massive firepower do you people not understand war, since when has war had to be fair? that statment borders on mental retardation

[bob sacamano]

BOB Sacamano

the fact you are saying what is happening to HAMAS is worse than what the NAZIS did to Jewish populations has exposed the kind of fool that you really are, do you really think in your pathetic head that it is even comparable? if the answer is yes, you are indeed a person in need of education on what happened during WW2, supporting terrorism is one thing but downplaying the NAZIS evil is in an completley different spectrum. you need serious help


I have also noticed in most, not all but most of the posts supporting Hamas and their actions, a definite anti-semite undertone to the language. I am not Jewish myself but this racism has no place on this forum,

PS Israel is far from an innocent victim in this conflict but HAMAS is the instigator of this current situation and people stating the fight is not fair are absolutely ridicuolous, what should Israel do in response fire their own rockets at random into Gaza hoping they kill Hamas leaders. no they have set targets and use their massive firepower do you people not understand war, since when has war had to be fair? that statment borders on mental retardation

I feel that there's a vain in your forehead that's about to pop, and for that reason, I won't reply.

[albertdesalvo]

Make a stretegy (a workable one) plan your attack and bide your time until you can win.

You mean like Bin Laden did?

[albertdesalvo]

Suppose there were a few Bin Laden aficionados hanging around Toronto, and they decided to get under Uncle Sam's skin by lobbing some rockets over the lake into Buffalo, NY. The US would be somwhat pissed off at this, and could certainly be expected to tell Canada, "listen, this shit has to stop RIGHT NOW and if you can't stop it, we will take matters into our own hands, come across your border, and use whatever military might we deem necessary to do so. We want you to handle it yourselves, but if you can't, WE CAN.

Would anyone be surprised at this reaction? Does anyone think it's unreasonable? Would anyone expect the mighty USA to just sit there and watch the rockets kill innocent Buffalonians and do nothing?

War is not fair, and talking about fair fights is ridiculous. There is nothing fair about innocent civilians going about their business being killed by falling rockets and suicide bombers. When the WTC was hit, the President said it was an "act of war". Well, random rocket attacks on civilians in their own country is also an act of war. I have to agree with Niss, are the Israelis supposed to respond by firing some tin can rockets back at them?

Back in WW2 the Japanese made a big mistake when they woke up a sleeping giant. Seems to me these Hamas guys have not only woken one up, they keep prodding him with sharp sticks.

[mcrit]

I feel that there's a vain in your forehead that's about to pop, and for that reason, I won't reply.

vein
...but other than that thanks for S^2ing

[bmc]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809289.stm

Is this like blaming the woman when her husband beats her?

Just asking.

[bob sacamano]

I feel that there's a vain in your forehead that's about to pop, and for that reason, I won't reply.

vein
...but other than that thanks for S^2ing

ouch! hitting me where it hurts, my 4th language spelling skills. Why don't you just stick a knife in my heart!

[bob sacamano]

Suppose there were a few Bin Laden aficionados hanging around Toronto, and they decided to get under Uncle Sam's skin by lobbing some rockets over the lake into Buffalo, NY. The US would be somwhat pissed off at this, and could certainly be expected to tell Canada, "listen, this shit has to stop RIGHT NOW and if you can't stop it, we will take matters into our own hands, come across your border, and use whatever military might we deem necessary to do so. We want you to handle it yourselves, but if you can't, WE CAN.

Would anyone be surprised at this reaction? Does anyone think it's unreasonable? Would anyone expect the mighty USA to just sit there and watch the rockets kill innocent Buffalonians and do nothing?

War is not fair, and talking about fair fights is ridiculous. There is nothing fair about innocent civilians going about their business being killed by falling rockets and suicide bombers. When the WTC was hit, the President said it was an "act of war". Well, random rocket attacks on civilians in their own country is also an act of war. I have to agree with Niss, are the Israelis supposed to respond by firing some tin can rockets back at them?

Back in WW2 the Japanese made a big mistake when they woke up a sleeping giant. Seems to me these Hamas guys have not only woken one up, they keep prodding him with sharp sticks.

How can you compare these two stories? You really think you can compare Canadians to Palestinians way of life? We live in a democracy here, no one is invading us or rulling us with a military occupation, so ofcourse if someone fires rockets toda to the u.s. we'd all be shocked and surprised.

In palestine, no one is shocked, the palestinians are resisting. They are on the defensive, they are a nation, a people, who are occupied militarily by the israelis. So no one is shocked when their resistance fires into enemy controlled land.

For those who said hamas has taken over the palestinians with a coup, hamas was elected by the people of palestine during the last elections.

[bob sacamano]

Thought this was an interesting article and wanted to know if there were other Jews who agree with this point of view:

Date: Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 8:47 AMSubject: New Jewish
Australian Committee for Dismantling of Zionism

John Docker and Ned Curthoys
The December 2008 Gaza Massacre


We are part of an increasing number of people around the world of Jewish
descent who are sickened by the coldly calculated massacre
of the Palestinians of Gaza and who utterly repudiate
Israel's claim that it acts in the name of Jews the
world over. Like Antony Loewenstein we deplore the 'myth
of Israel' as perpetual victim and rational peace
seeker, and its stranglehold over media reportage of the
Israel-Palestine conflict. The massacre in
Gaza cries out not only for immediate condemnation but for
historical explanation. As scholars working in the fields of
genocide studies and research into the long history of
European colonization, it seems clear to us that Israel –
as in the history of white Australia since 1788 – is a
genocidal settler colonial society that since its founding
in 1948 continually seeks to destroy the foundations of life
of the indigenous Palestinians, their health, dignity,
livelihood, personal security, access to education, and
political organisation, so that the Palestinians can be
replaced by colonizing Zionist settlers. Recent genocide
scholarship has highlighted how much the original definition
of genocide (by Raphael Lemkin in chapter nine of his 1944
book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe) linked genocide and
colonization as a two stage process of destruction of the
home society (not necessarily by physical annihilation qua
Nazism) and replacement by the incoming colonizers. Such has
been the continuing historical pattern of Israel in relation
to the indigenous people of the land. In 1948 the Zionist
forces violently drove out over 700,000 Palestinians by
deploying 'admonitory massacres', as the Israeli
historian Ilan Pappé has evoked in horrific detail in his
recent The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006). Pappé
details the continuous series of massacres in 1948-49 and
sporadically thereafter that the Zionists perpetrated
against the Palestinians in order to 'Judaize'
ethnically-cleansed Palestinian lands. In 1967 the Israeli
state conquered the West Bank and Gaza and has aggressively
continued a genocidal pattern of replacement and
destruction, creating and expanding Jewish settlements,
stealing Palestinian land and ghettoizing remaining
Palestinian communities, attempting, through a brutal
military occupation, to make life humiliating and unbearable
for the Palestinians. What we are now
witnessing is a form of settler colonization reminiscent of
nineteenth century Australia, in which a settler colonial
'logic of elimination' (to quote historian of
settler colonialism, Patrick Wolfe) combines massacre and
population sequestration (reserves) to incapacitate the
sovereign self determination of an indigenous people. Yet
indigenous peoples have always resisted the genocidal
processes of destruction and replacement that settler
colonialism enacts. The indigenous peoples of Australia have
magnificently resisted and still do, despite all their
historical sufferings. The indigenous Palestinians as a
people are also resisting the disaster that Zionism and
Israel have brought upon them, thereby providing the
continuing possibility of a future coexistence between
Israeli Jews and Palestinians. The December
2008 Gaza massacre by Zionist Israel poses an intense
dilemma for Israel's organized Jewish supporters and
much of the Jewish diaspora, who have for decades cooperated
with and been complicit in the ongoing, incremental Israeli
genocide of the Palestinians. Israel is guilty under article
II, part C of the UN Genocide Convention, in that it intends
to destroy, in whole or in part, an ethnic group by
'deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole
or in part'. Will the Jews of the world continue to be
so supportive, or will they historically disavow genocidal
settler colonialism in the Middle East and question their
own previous support? Historically, Israel is the imposition
of a European nation state, founded on the notion of one
people, one religion, one ethnicity, in an area of the
world, the Levant, which through the centuries has been a
space where Jews, Muslims and Christians have lived together
in the same societies. The very idea so precious to Zionism,
of Israel as a Jewish state, is absurd, as the great Jewish
jurist and Australian governor-general Isaac Isaacs pointed
out in the 1940s. What if Australia called itself a
Protestant state, immediately making all non-Protestants
second class citizens systematically facing abuse,
discrimination, and state violence, as Palestinian Israelis
do to the present day? Israel/Palestine should become a
democratic state, a democracy where all who live in that
land are full citizens whatever their religion or ethnicity.
The Australian government not that long
ago in its apology over the Stolen Generations extended
sympathy and understanding to the indigenous people of
Australia. Why doesn't it extend a similar sympathy to
the indigenous people of Palestine?

John Docker Ned
Curthoys Committee for the Dismantling of Zionism 1 January
2009

[CSk3RampBOY]

In 1948 the Zionist
forces violently drove out over 700,000 Palestinians by
deploying 'admonitory massacres', as the Israeli
historian Ilan Pappé has evoked in horrific detail in his
recent The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006). Pappé
details the continuous series of massacres in 1948-49 and
sporadically thereafter that the Zionists perpetrated
against the Palestinians in order to 'Judaize'
ethnically-cleansed Palestinian lands

Important piece of information there. If you guys think that it was the Arabs who were the first to participate in terrorist acts within the region, then your greatly mistaken.

In the 1930s in 1940s, the Stzern gang was a group of angry jews who started bombing British targets, since the brits limited Jewish immigration into Palestine. Furthermore, the Stzern gang started terrorizing the Palestinians by kicking them off their land.
Before the creation of Israel, the Jews claimed that the Palestinians just moved away from their lands. This was totally false & thanks the jewish lobbying, the U.S pushed the U.N for the creation of Israel.
The entire justification for many Zionist or jewish fundamentalist was that God gave the land. According to the Zionist, the Old testament states that God gave the land stretching from the Sinai-to turkey-to the Euphrates. try explaining that one to the Arabs!

Today, Israel keeps expanding their territories into the West bank and Gaza strip, by creating more and more settlements. They built jewish only highways that lead directly into the heart of Palestine, where Palestinians once had their farms.
Imagine your land being taken from you by the Israeli army in order to give way for a Wall, Highway or settlement.
Imagine if you lie in Hebron, where it's common to have curfew for arabs & not for Jews.
Imagine living in the low grounds and having your village being polluted by Jewish settlements on the high grounds, sending their crap into arab lands.

Imagine growing up in the refugee camps of southern Lebenon, with no prospects nor opportunity, just oppression. All of a sudden, one can feel meaningless and angry, those resorting to terrorist acts.

Now, I don't support Hamas nor the PLO. But the only way this issue is going to be settled, is if the Israelis begin to pay the reparation money they owe to the former Palestinian land owners, who still have deeds to the lands. It's in the billions, but they are have to or they'll be facing more rocket attacks.
Btw, I don't support Hamas rocket attacks, it's stupid and desperate. This time, they were really asking for it!

[bob sacamano]

Now, I don't support Hamas nor the PLO. But the only way this issue is going to be settled, is if the Israelis begin to pay the reparation money they owe to the former Palestinian land owners, who still have deeds to the lands. It's in the billions, but they are have to or they'll be facing more rocket attacks.
Btw, I don't support Hamas rocket attacks, it's stupid and desperate. This time, they were really asking for it!

If you speak against the israelis you will be labeled as an anti-semite.

No matter how many disclaimers you advertise.

[C-GGGQ]

So no one is shocked when their resistance fires into enemy controlled land.

Then why is everyone shocked when they fire back?

[bob sacamano]

So no one is shocked when their resistance fires into enemy controlled land.

Then why is everyone shocked when they fire back?

I don't agree with you that everyone is shocked, some might be. Let's start with you and me;

I'm not shocked, are you?

[C-GGGQ]

OK not shocked but angry or outraged that they would fire back. I mean be angry at Israel for how they've treated the palestineans, not that fact that when attacked they fought back heaven forbid.

[TG]

Why Israel Feels Threatened

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/opini ... .html?_r=2