Sky Dive Pay

[Cat Driver]

What do you mean " we " are you suggesting that all pilots act that way?

[Diver Driver]

Hey Cat I don't think Mustang06 meant anything bad by "we".

I hope he is saying its time to stop letting entry level companies screw the low time pilot. He is right if that is what he is saying.

I did some research on other drop zones and found some that pay as much as $20/load nothing under $10/load (skydive toronto would be an exception). Quite a few are paying a three load minimum, one of the early replies to this thread is paid by the flight hour with a 4 hour minimum. I presented this to my DZ and was told that it did not mean anything or apply to us.

You know I expected this response from the DZ, but what really did us in was you guessed it one of our own !@#$ pilots.

[mag check]

You know I expected this response from the DZ, but what really did us in was you guessed it one of our own !@#$ pilots.

You are not happy with the new deal? To me, this is much better than what you were getting. Am I missing something?

its time to stop letting entry level companies screw the low time pilot.

I always laugh when I read this. If the "entry level" companies had to pay their pilots the same as the other big companies, then they would close the doors, and the pilots would be out of work. Why is it that people think that an "entry level" pilot is worth as much pay as the high time pilot?
Just because a guy/girl makes it through a commercial pilot course, doesn't mean they are instantly entitled to make 200,000 per year.

The main reason that these companies have to pay so little, is because the pilots treat them as a stepping stone. They constantly are having to replace/train new guys, and that gets expensive. If the pilots would go to a company, with the intention of staying as a career, then I think pay would rise accordingly.

[Diver Driver]

You know I expected this response from the DZ, but what really did us in was you guessed it one of our own !@#$ pilots.

You are not happy with the new deal? To me, this is much better than what you were getting. Am I missing something?

its time to stop letting entry level companies screw the low time pilot.

I always laugh when I read this. If the "entry level" companies had to pay their pilots the same as the other big companies, then they would close the doors, and the pilots would be out of work. Why is it that people think that an "entry level" pilot is worth as much pay as the high time pilot?
Just because a guy/girl makes it through a commercial pilot course, doesn't mean they are instantly entitled to make 200,000 per year.

The main reason that these companies have to pay so little, is because the pilots treat them as a stepping stone. They constantly are having to replace/train new guys, and that gets expensive. If the pilots would go to a company, with the intention of staying as a career, then I think pay would rise accordingly.

Is it better than before? Yes it is. Is it good enough for what a pilot needs? No

I did some research on other drop zones and found some that pay as much as $20/load nothing under $10/load (skydive toronto would be an exception). Quite a few are paying a three load minimum, one of the early replies to this thread is paid by the flight hour with a 4 hour minimum. I presented this to my DZ and was told that it did not mean anything or apply to us.


I don't think any of us expect entry level companies to pay as much as a high time pilot. However there needs to be some kind of standard set or there are always going to be low time guys willing to work for free or below minimum wage. If this were to happen then some guys might stay around longer and training would be less in the end.

Again the problem is we (low time guys) always shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to getting that first job. It truly is pilot's fault this happens.

[Mustang06]

Diver Driver

I think you got my point. I say "we" because I'm also a pilot.
They (aviation business man) do that (pay peanuts or even don’t pay to a highly trained professional) because "we" allow them to do that, so it's 100% our fault.
They day we start to say no, then things will be better.
Ask a dentist or a lawyer to work for free and you will see.
Again, its surprise me how little respect there is for pilots here in North America, I flew medevacs and the nurse sitting in the back was making 3 times my salary and 80% more than the captain. Why this happen?, because if you don’t pay the nurse well he/she will leave for another job, but if the pilot doesn’t want it, then other will do the same job for even less.
So again, it’s our fault.
Capishi?

[mag check]

Something tells me that Diver Driver will continue working toward a better contract with the dz.

If you don't quit, and can hold out till the pilots that work for nothing leave,(which they will) then things have to improve.

[mattedfred]

Ask a dentist or a lawyer to work for free and you will see.

that is because the number of new dentists is tightly controlled which maintains an acceptable level of compensation. any tom, dick or harry with some money and half a brain can get a canadian CPL and start looking for work. supply and demand.

[FlowPack]

Everyone is so quick to blame the pilots for low wages.
I understand the logic here. Except it is small picture thinking.

Situation:
Joe Arrow has been looking for work for 18months. He's made the road trips and has met with only closed doors. Then one sun-shiny day, he has an interview where he gets an 'opportunity' to fly jumpers for free (with 10 eager young men in the waiting room, hoping he blows his chance). He's thinking, I've got a bunch of friends working at XXXX and all I need is 200hrs more PIC to get on there. I can make this work...

Response:
1. I'm gonna tell this guy to go fck himself. Then I'm going to walk into the waiting room, stand on the coffee table and motivationally speak until every teary bloke agrees to stand up against the-man with me.
2. I'm gonna take it, suffer, and forget it when it's over. Because I know that the one small decision I make today, will not effect change.

How did Joe get into this situation? That waiting room is filled with 10 other Joe's. There is a Joe somewhere working the ramp for the past two years with no real hope of flightline. Another Joe is working at Sobey's because that other Joe got to work the ramp for the past two years with no real hope of flightline. A younger Joe is sitting in a classroom right now exhilarated to learn about density altitude and stalls while his imagination is stroked with unrealistic ideas of his future career, completely unware of the proverbial rock he will inevitabley have to push up the hill daily before his dreams are realized.

I do not blame Joe.

[Diver Driver]

FlowPack, that is a nice story but how do we fix it?

[flyinganvil]

Ok, I have worked for 3 different DZs in the past and here were my 3 different pay scales:

DZ #1:
summer contract April 15- Sept. 30
$2000/month
room and board provided
$1000 year end bonus
+$10/tandem pack job (they trained me to pack so i could pick up some extra cash)
Total flight hrs at end of 5 1/2 months: 300hrs

DZ #2:
weekend dz pilot
$85/day (was the cost of the local hotel room where they housed me)
(I decided to sleep in my tent most nights and pocket the $85/day)
$8/load
$$$ to pack when not flying. $6/sport rig/student rig and $10/tandem
Total flight hrs at end of 6 months season (weekends only) 180hrs

DZ #3:
weekend dz pilot/ training pilot
$10/hr for pilot training (182 checkout to already certified CPLs)
$10/load
no day rate
$$$ to pack: $6/sport rig $8/student rig $15/tandem
Total flight hrs: n/a because I obtained my current employment at the beginning of the skydive season. I think the other pilot rounded out the season with close to 200hrs.

[Diver Driver]

Ok, I have worked for 3 different DZs in the past and here were my 3 different pay scales:

DZ #1:
summer contract April 15- Sept. 30
$2000/month
room and board provided
$1000 year end bonus
+$10/tandem pack job (they trained me to pack so i could pick up some extra cash)
Total flight hrs at end of 5 1/2 months: 300hrs

DZ #2:
weekend dz pilot
$85/day (was the cost of the local hotel room where they housed me)
(I decided to sleep in my tent most nights and pocket the $85/day)
$8/load
$$$ to pack when not flying. $6/sport rig/student rig and $10/tandem
Total flight hrs at end of 6 months season (weekends only) 180hrs

DZ #3:
weekend dz pilot/ training pilot
$10/hr for pilot training (182 checkout to already certified CPLs)
$10/load
no day rate
$$$ to pack: $6/sport rig $8/student rig $15/tandem
Total flight hrs: n/a because I obtained my current employment at the beginning of the skydive season. I think the other pilot rounded out the season with close to 200hrs.

DZ #1:

$12 000.00 for the season and no money out of pocket for rent or food, not bad. If you figure out what it cost you to eat and and the rent you made about $33 000.00 annualy. I would say there are a lot of guys starting out that don't make that much, even pilots flying light twins on a sched are making less then that.

DZ #2:

Is that $85 a day plus $8/load?

I didn't include the pack jobs because I just want to know what you are getting paid to fly.

[Diver Driver]

Update!!!

After the end of our season the pilots got together and voted on what we were going to charge the DZ for this season:

-$25 a day to be on-call
-$15 an hour to be on site and flying
-time and a half for anything over eight hours

They don't want the pilots to be "employees" so we decided to base our contracted rate with this formula. In the end $4.27 of each jump (for each jumper) would go to the pilot based on the numbers from the last 2 seasons.

The result

Our DZ fired the chief pilot and had a meeting with the remaining pilots. The offer was $25 on-call and $20 per airtime hour. At 0.2 for a hop and pop this works out to $4 a load or a dollar a jumper in the 182.

After this the AGM was held and the membership voted on $25 on-call that could be cancelled the day you are on call and $8.50 a load.

After this two more pilots quit as well as the PRM.

The DZ recently got the PRM to come back ($$$) and of course one of the two remaining pilots is now the chief pilot.


In the end the DZ is now paying a $25 on-call fee plus the $8.50 a load I mentioned above. Still sub par but an improvement from the $5 a load the DZ paid in 2008 BUT.....Our CP had to martyr himself to get it done.

I haven't been on here for a while and was surprised to see this topic back on the first page. Glad to see some of you are still thinking about entry level pay and that there are some DZs out there that appreciate their staff.

[Carrier]

Quote: "Then one sun-shiny day, he has an interview where he gets an 'opportunity' to fly jumpers for free (with 10 eager young men in the waiting room, hoping he blows his chance)."

Response:
Nothing can be done about low but still legal pay. However, as previously pointed out, drop zones are required to pay their commercial pilots the minimum wage. This is the law. Politely refuse to take the job at less than the legal minimum pay. If this does not work and someone else takes the job at less than legal minimum, no pay at all or even pays for the "job", then you have the right to act as anyone who suspects that an offence has been committed.
File complaints with the regulatory authorities. Start with the Employment ministry. Then, on the basis that if the operator is breaking the law in one area he is also likely to be doing so in others, also file complaints with Transport Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency suggesting that both should do a full audit of the operator.
Don't forget to include the scab pilots in the complaints as, like Johns in prostitution cases, they should also be charged as accessories or accomplices and named and shamed.
The remedies are out there. It is up to affected pilots (victims) to use them!

[nickorette]

You guys should go on strike! $5... I spent $10 on lunch yesterday!

Sounds like aviation is not something you get rich off of. Better to get rich then get into aviation

[Inverted2]

You are getting less than minimum wage. Take notes of how many hours you worked there and how much you got and take the cheap bastard to court! Is this a certain DZ north of the GTA that always has an ad for pilots in the COPA?

[flyinganvil]

yes Diver Driver.

It was $85/day plus $8/load

[Diver Driver]

yes Diver Driver.

It was $85/day plus $8/load

DZ:#2
So you were getting an $85 per diem and $8 a load which means you were out there for the day and if the weather was bad or you did not have jumper commitment on any particular day you were making less then minimum wage. Any money made packing is just an advantage for any DZ when legally they are suppose to be paying you for your time anyway, not to mention the added liability the pilot accepts by taking on the extra responsibility.

DZ #3:
This is pretty much the same as #2 just structured a little differently but the same result some days you are going to be making less then minimum wage.

[Diver Driver]

You are getting less than minimum wage. Take notes of how many hours you worked there and how much you got and take the cheap bastard to court! Is this a certain DZ north of the GTA that always has an ad for pilots in the COPA?

Yes there are a lot of days that work out to less then minimum wage and all the affected pilots are aware of their rights.

No we are not in the GTA, we are west of there.

[Diver Driver]

Quote: "Then one sun-shiny day, he has an interview where he gets an 'opportunity' to fly jumpers for free (with 10 eager young men in the waiting room, hoping he blows his chance)."

Response:
Nothing can be done about low but still legal pay. However, as previously pointed out, drop zones are required to pay their commercial pilots the minimum wage. This is the law. Politely refuse to take the job at less than the legal minimum pay. If this does not work and someone else takes the job at less than legal minimum, no pay at all or even pays for the "job", then you have the right to act as anyone who suspects that an offence has been committed.
File complaints with the regulatory authorities. Start with the Employment ministry. Then, on the basis that if the operator is breaking the law in one area he is also likely to be doing so in others, also file complaints with Transport Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency suggesting that both should do a full audit of the operator.
Don't forget to include the scab pilots in the complaints as, like Johns in prostitution cases, they should also be charged as accessories or accomplices and named and shamed.
The remedies are out there. It is up to affected pilots (victims) to use them!

As mentioned above the affected pilots are aware of their rights, you are right it is up to them to act. It's just a good idea to let others know what is going on and so everyone can make educated decisions.

Thanks for everyone’s input.

DD

[CPLMike89]

So on the subject of jump pilot wages just thought id chime in:

First year flying a 182 full time
$1700/month, free housing and a great place to work for a first flying gig.
making less then when I was on the ramp but ill log around 300 hours this season(finally)

Mike

[sapper6fd]

I may be way off here, but does the Employment Standards Act not apply to pilots because its regulated by the feds??

Quote from the BC Employment Standards Act:

Part 3 — Wages, Special Clothing and Records

Employers required to pay minimum wage
16 (1) An employer must pay an employee at least the minimum wage as prescribed in the regulations.

(2) An employer must not, directly or indirectly, withhold, deduct or require payment of all or part of an employee's wages in a pay period to comply with subsection (1) in relation to any other pay period

It seems to me if your required to be at the DZ all day, then the employer is required to pay the minimum wage for that province. Same can be said for flight schools.

Is it just that people are so afraid their names will be run through the swap in the industry because they took their employer to Employment Standards that they wont risk doing it?

[Bede]

Sapper6fd,

The Employment Standards Act does not apply to aviation since aeronautics is federally regulated. Also, many entry level jobs in aviation are on a contract basis (you get paid only when you fly) so other employment standards also may not apply.

[NorthernGoose]

In the end, it is the pilots themselves that set their wages. If you have some young guy offering to fly for free, us avcanadians might not look fondly on him, but it is his choice, no one is putting a gun to his head and forcing him. He is just selling himself short and screwing over his fellow pilots.

If some guy offered to mow my lawn all summer for free just for a chance to play with my mower, would I be in the wrong to let him do it?

You could simply add a buck or two from last years rate, then see who applies, if no resumes show up, put out a new ad sweetening up the deal a bit.

The problem I have with this argument is the fact that as pilots we are faced with the ever daunting task of building time and experience before anyone can trust us with a bigger piece of machinery. When the airline industry at a domestic/international level is struggling to stay profitable you can only assume those regional carriers are more than likely taking a loss each month. This in turn means no jobs/layoffs. The only opportunity an entry level pilot has to develop some sort of experience is to under cut those who are already in the industry. If this was not done realistically they would be hard pressed to find any sort of work. Some say its not what you know its who you know but right now the industry is much more about who knows you.

thanks.

[CPLMike89]

So with the new season coming up again and the possibility of doing another summer at the DZ looking more and more likely Im just curious as to how many people here are doing the same? Last year was pretty good but Ill definatly be asking for a raise as ill be flying the bigger machine this time around on top of all the other duties pilots do at our DZ.

[nortont]

Can't seem to get out of it.... Oh well, at least I'm still having fun.