The Next Gear Up Landing

[jjj]

Doc,

By any chance would you care to elaborate on any other common errors in aviation that you are impervious to?

[sky's the limit]

Ok,

I just cleaned this up. Keep it that way and it'll stay, the topic is valid but lose the personal stuff.

stl

[xsbank]

I always get here too late and miss the stuff before "the edit."

For all you guys who don't 'get it,' may I suggest you invest some time with these guys? http://www.ilsc.ca/

Money well-spent and I'm sure when you have completed your course you will find that you don't get as annoyed as often, you will find you get less red in the face (and neck, perhaps) and you will finally see what it is that we are trying to say. If you are in Quebec, I think you can even get a tax deduction.

[Doc]

Skimmed the thread.
I have taken some 3000 hour talented pilots in some pretty normal training scenarios in a Learjet and they were so far behind that they could barely hold on let alone remember the gear - I wonder how you could handle it Doc?
I find your position on this matter arrogant and ill informed.
JJJ

JJJ, I don't fly a Lear. I'll just have to assume, that during a training scenario, you would be the one on "landing gear duty" until your trainee "got his act together? Once they are trained and "cut loose" they will have the gear down thing pretty much sorted out?
I find it curious that my comments on my not forgetting the gear leads you to find me "arrogant and ill informed...." I find referring to someone you've never met as "arrogant" reflects badly on you. Not me.
I'm totally into a Lear Jet flight with you. You may well find me "water skiing" 5 miles behind the airplane. And, I'm sure you will be able to overload my wee brain. But, prior to the landing, you can take bets, I'll be checking for the wheels. If I'm too fast, because I'm too far behind, I'll be calling for a go around.
Why is everyone so threatened by this? To me, it's like opening the garage door before you put the car in. I just do it.

I started this thread to wake up folks to the fact, that collectively, as a group, our heads are up our butts. It's turned into a "Doc bashing" thread because, for some reason, my assertion that I shall never forget the landing gear, is hard on some egos. I have never said I'm immune to mistakes. Just that one.

I'm not even going to reply to yycflyguy, except to wish him further success flying his Airbus.

[Stearman]

I am going to bet on Transport Canada doing a Gear up maybe at the start of there flying season.

[Doc]

I am going to bet on Transport Canada doing a Gear up maybe at the start of there flying season.

Not to wish ill on any sector of our industry, but the number of accidents these guys have had, through the years is bloody pitiful. I can think of several just off the top of my head, including fatalities, on VFR days that make me shake my head. For the size of their operation, the number of flights they conduct, they must be the most "accident prone" pilot group in the entire country. They're also a good example how all the courses in the world can't prevent stupid. They mandated the courses. They all take all the courses. They teach the courses.
Stearman, you stand a very good chance "statistically" of winning the prize.

[jjj]

Doc,

You seem to assume that all things are always equal when you are flying - they aren't.

I have seen great pilots make elementary mistakes when they are not on their game because of fatigue or the wife beats them at home and/or they got knocked out of sequence because of other external variables directly related to the flight.

The point I was trying to make with gear like a Lear is usually any perfectly good pilot can easily get overwhelmed with the transition that their brain can't even manage the stuff that was common to their previous plane.

I don't know what you are flying but I do know that the list of "killer" items on a plane usually gets longer as a function of size and/or technology.

I check and recheck my killer Items and even tend to over-prepare for approaches beyond the requirement of the SOP. To me, missing the gear is the same as a flubbed take off performance calculation. It is just as easy and the consequences are just as dire.

I'm, reminded of the cargo '47 that burnt off the end of the runway in Halifax a few years ago and the AC plane that ended up on it's ass in Frankfurt (I think) with 2 Captains at the wheel.

Simple mistakes that happen to good pilots with bad consequences.

I appreciate and truly believe that the intent of this thread is honourable because you feel that there are people that need a wake up call. I agree and even know of one or two people that should have their licences cut up for incompetence. However, where I disagree with you is how you assert that you are impervious to making the error of this thread's subject.

I don't know of any pilot that is infallible to any error. The professional pilot knows this and as much as we trust ourselves the most we also have a distrust because we know that we are fallible. The professional pilot will check and recheck himself as you do at calculated times on an approach.

Never say never Doc. I sincerely hope the day never comes when your hands are full and you are at the limit of your ability with a problem and then sparks fly because you didn't make it to the gear handle when your normal sequence would have allowed.

I'm sure there are many on here that appreciate the wake up call as complacency is one of the greatest threats to safety out there and why a lot of good airplanes get bent.

Nothing personal Doc - just never say never.

Cheers.

I need a beer - it's a good thing I'm in St. John's


JJJ

[Dust Devil]

Doc,

You seem to assume that all things are always equal when you are flying - they aren't.

I have seen great pilots make elementary mistakes when they are not on their game because of fatigue or the wife beats them at home and/or they got knocked out of sequence because of other external variables directly related to the flight.

The point I was trying to make with gear like a Lear is usually any perfectly good pilot can easily get overwhelmed with the transition that their brain can't even manage the stuff that was common to their previous plane.

I don't know what you are flying but I do know that the list of "killer" items on a plane usually gets longer as a function of size and/or technology.

I check and recheck my killer Items and even tend to over-prepare for approaches beyond the requirement of the SOP. To me, missing the gear is the same as a flubbed take off performance calculation. It is just as easy and the consequences are just as dire.

I'm, reminded of the cargo '47 that burnt off the end of the runway in Halifax a few years ago and the AC plane that ended up on it's ass in Frankfurt (I think) with 2 Captains at the wheel.

Simple mistakes that happen to good pilots with bad consequences.

I appreciate and truly believe that the intent of this thread is honourable because you feel that there are people that need a wake up call. I agree and even know of one or two people that should have their licences cut up for incompetence. However, where I disagree with you is how you assert that you are impervious to making the error of this thread's subject.

I don't know of any pilot that is infallible to any error. The professional pilot knows this and as much as we trust ourselves the most we also have a distrust because we know that we are fallible. The professional pilot will check and recheck himself as you do at calculated times on an approach.

Never say never Doc. I sincerely hope the day never comes when your hands are full and you are at the limit of your ability with a problem and then sparks fly because you didn't make it to the gear handle when your normal sequence would have allowed.

I'm sure there are many on here that appreciate the wake up call as complacency is one of the greatest threats to safety out there and why a lot of good airplanes get bent.

Nothing personal Doc - just never say never.

Cheers.

I need a beer - it's a good thing I'm in St. John's


JJJ

The difference is some mistakes have only one result. A flubbed take off calculation is not guaranteed to result in a crash in fact that may go unnoticed to everyone but the pilot depending on circumstances. Forgetting gear however isn't going to be so easy to cover up ever!

Not a single poster on either side of the issue has said perfection is the only way however some items go beyond striving for perfection and land square on the plate of competence.

[jjj]

Dust Devil,

Good post.

Your last sentence should be the thread ending argument.


JJJ

[Donald]

Perhaps some people should take a read of this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/188536-1.html

It was originally posted by John Deakin in 2004, and I think it's appropriate for this discussion.

If it's too long for you, skip to the bottom where he describes his own near gear up of a 747.

[jspitfire]

Anybody hear of a gear up, or at least nosewheel up, landing in Yellowknife? Summit I think?

Cadors Number: 2010C0161

Occurrence Date: 2010-01-17

Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod

Date: 2010-01-18

Further Action Required: No

O.P.I.: System Safety

Narrative: C-FUCN, a Dornier 228 operated by Summit Air Charters, was en route to Yellowknife on a flight from Doris Lake and upon departure from Doris Lake, the crew observed the gear in transit light remained flashing. When inbound to YZF, they contacted tower and declared an emergency due to the gear problem. They did a fly by and the nose gear did not appear to be down despite using the emergency gear extension system. After several touch and goes to try to dislodge the nose gear, C-FUCN subsequently landed on Runway 15 at 0051z with the nose gear retracted. There were no injuries to the 2 crew and one passenger and the damage is not known at this time. TSB report to follow.

[. ._]

I need a beer - it's a good thing I'm in St. John's


JJJ

Lucky bastard!

[Doc]

Anybody hear of a gear up, or at least nosewheel up, landing in Yellowknife? Summit I think?

Cadors Number: 2010C0161

Occurrence Date: 2010-01-17

Detail InformationUser Name: Ridley, Rod

Date: 2010-01-18

Further Action Required: No

O.P.I.: System Safety

Narrative: C-FUCN, a Dornier 228 operated by Summit Air Charters, was en route to Yellowknife on a flight from Doris Lake and upon departure from Doris Lake, the crew observed the gear in transit light remained flashing. When inbound to YZF, they contacted tower and declared an emergency due to the gear problem. They did a fly by and the nose gear did not appear to be down despite using the emergency gear extension system. After several touch and goes to try to dislodge the nose gear, C-FUCN subsequently landed on Runway 15 at 0051z with the nose gear retracted. There were no injuries to the 2 crew and one passenger and the damage is not known at this time. TSB report to follow.

Sounds like a very well handled situation to me. Kudos for the crew. Sometimes stuff just doesn't work.

[xsbank]

Agreed - busted stuff is, well, sometimes just busted. Do your best, follow the procedures and don't stop flying until the last piece of junk comes to a stop.

[pelmet]

Occurrence No. : A10W0010 Occurrence Type: INCIDENT VOLUNTARY
Class : CLASS 5 Reportable Type:
Date : 14-01-2010 Time : 13:44 PST
Region of Responsibility : WESTERN
Location : CAD3 WOLVERINE, YUKON


Aircraft Information:

Registration : C-GSDT Operator : ALKAN AIR
Manufacturer : PIPER Operator Type: COMMERCIAL
Model : PA-31-350 CARs Info: 703 - AIR TAXI
Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 5 Unknown : 0


Occurrence Summary :

A10W0010: An Alkan Air Piper Navajo, PA-31-350, (C-GSDT) was in the landing flare at the Wolverine (Yukon-Zinc) airport when the propeller tips were heard striking the ground. A go around was initiated and C-GSDT returned to the airport for a normal landing. On the initial landing attempt the landing gear had not been extended. Damage to the aircraft was limited to the propeller tips on both sides.

[xsbank]

Obviously not an Avcanada reader.

Jesus H. Christ. Guess I lost the bet.

[Cat Driver]

No you didn't.

The bet is still on as that was not a gear up landing, only the prop tips touched the ground.

[Doc]

No you didn't.

The bet is still on as that was not a gear up landing, only the prop tips touched the ground.

No Cat.....hitting the ground with the props COUNTS!!!! Another poor sot FORGOT to put the wheels down. And he bent the props to prove it! Just because he has the reflexes of a "Cat" does not let him off the hook! He hit the ground with the airplane without the gear!

Hitting the ground with the props, and electing to continue flying could have caused a prop failure, creating an uncontrollable propeller imbalance, that very well could have caused a crash. Staying on the ground, could be the lesser of two evils?

Who picked ONE week? Still think all the warm fuzzy courses work? WHEN are we going to pull our heads out of our collective asses????

This is just frikken AMAZING!!!!

Where are these "pilots" getting their licenses???

[beechnut]

Doc
You are the one who sounds like a TWIT. I'll bet if the shoe was on your foot you would do exactly the same thing .
Beechnut

[Doc]

Doc
You are the one who sounds like a TWIT. I'll bet if the shoe was on your foot you would do exactly the same thing .
Beechnut

You're right. It's all my fault. I did it. The "shoe" wasn't on my "foot" now, was it?? Bottom line here? He hit the ground without the gear. Because he "forgot" the most basic rule in flying a retractable aircraft. Put the bloody gear down. So, Beechnut, you feel the word "twit" is a bit strong? How about "rocket scientist", or "professional" pilot? Would that better suit your tender sensitivities? I calls 'em, as I sees 'em. If more folks did that, instead of finding excuses, we'd have far less accidents. Circle the wagons, all you politically correct, sensitive types. Lets all sing Kumbaya, and hold hands. Yah, that's the ticket. Hold hands and chant. But, whatever we do, lets not hurt anyone's feelings here. Don't want any tears now, do we.
Let the sniveling, whining and excuses begin!
Bring it ON. Cry me a bloody RIVER!

[Cat Driver]

If you hear the props hit the ground because the gear is up you are better off just closing your eyes and letting the thing slide to a stop....the odds are far better you will live than going around.

[beechnut]

Doc
i would love to see your unblemished record. It must be a sight to behold

[Doc]

Doc
i would love to see your unblemished record. It must be a sight to behold

Except...it isn't about me, now is it? Were you somehow involved in this latest work of art, or are you just unable to face the truth. That as a group, NOBODY IS THINKING!!
Instead of trying to fling shit at me, look at what's happening here. Nobody is FLYING the airplanes. I guess this is Okay with you, because you'd rather blame me? You fly your airplane....I actually do fly mine.

[bezerker]

Well, I know the guy who forgot to put the gear down in Wolverine. He is one of the best pilots I have flown with. He is intelligent, hard working, experienced, lots of time in the bush and on floats, lots of twin IFR, turbine, you name it. Everyone likes him and he is the guy that you would love to have beside you in any situation and on any flight. He has dealt with in flight emergencies in a professional manner and he is a favorite pilot of many customers. The people footing the bill for the mishap are betting he will be a better pilot because of it.

But wait, I've learned from Doc, I guess he was nothing but a fucking twit fooling us all. Hopefully we can all keep our distance from him until the owners realize he should be fired. With any luck, an idiot like that will hopefully never fly again.....

I've never met a "super pilot" but I sure hear all about them on this forum.

[xsbank]

Berzerker, are you being serious? "The people footing the bill for the mishap are betting he will be a better pilot because of it." Is this a joke? Don't you think that if this paragon of virtue just landed with the gear down, avoiding the cost of 2 props, 2 engines, the recovery and the lost revenue, all borne by the insurance company and thus raising the company's premiums, thereby costing you and the ramp rat's next raise, are really feeling all warm and fuzzy about this?

Are you serious?

So, gang, I read that in order to improve your piloting skills and raise your esteem in the eyes of your employer you should break something by doing something stupid? At what stage in your career would you recommend doing this deed? How much damage do you think is just right to improve your career? Maybe if a prop strike is good, landing a mile short would be better? How about injury or death? Would that make you the Sully of your generation? Guess that's why they think we are annoying, eh Cat? We haven't broken anything yet. Maybe that's why I never win the Collier Trophy, or that other one....... sniff.......

I think I've now heard it all. Thank you for enlightening me.