Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

[Strega]

At that altitude any load above 1G slams the lid on the coffin and you stall.

JJJ sorry my bad,, I thought it was you that wrote this,, it was the "R" man...

[jjj]

Exactly. Even the +2g's during entry, as Hedley points out, would be enough to cause a 'jet upset' at 30000 plus feet

This aircraft that crahsed was cleared to no higher than 34500',, so lets assume he was not higher than that.... I dont have a C550 manual in front of me, but Im speculating the "coffin corner" was much more than 5 knots.......

This is a simple example of pilot error caused by a lack of training..... A roll at 340 in a C550 would be easier to do than a roll at low level in an underpowered citabria.... and YES I have done both....


This is along the same lines as the "guys" that ran off the end of a 10k runway in a Dash ## being defended.......

As far as Im concerned, if you cant do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldnt be flying....

Looks to me like this guy is not at sea level,, and he seems ok.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMRCv669Vk

Please Strega elaborate on the relationship between the 10K Dash incident and the 550 roll.

This ought to be good.

If Strega can post a logical and cohesive argument together on that topic then it's a round of drinks on me.


Waiting with bated breath.

JJJ

No sweat Strega re: the 1G comment. Although, when flying a jet hideously above an optimum altitude - ie above what is allowed in the performance tables - anything above 1G does slam the lid on coffin corner.

However, still waiting on a comment regarding the relationship between the 10K Dash incident and the 550 roll.

JJJ

[Strega]

10K Dash incident and the 550 roll.

Defending people that crashed a dash 8 of the 10k runway is along the same lines as crashing a C550 trying to roll it..

BOTH ARE CLEAR ILLUSTRATIONS OF INCOMPETANCE!

[Cat Driver]

Oh, oh say good bye to this thread.

[. ._]

If the thread is gonna get pulled, might as well do it up right!



-istp

[Rockie]

AGE 60

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Sometimes I crack myself up...but seriously.

Next time you see a military pilot roll an aircraft on TV, he will almost certainly lose altitude because he doesn't raise the nose high enough in the entry, or hold enough top rudder through knife edge, or push enough while inverted

There's a couple of reasons for that. Fighter pilots are not typically trained in those kind of display type aerobatics. They are trained to maneuver their airplane to kill another airplane that's trying to kill them. Making it look pretty to observers on the ground isn't a consideration. Second, most fighters aren't built to do those kinds of aerobatics, and simply don't have the rudder authority yours do. Plus modern FBW usually has its own idea of what the plane should be doing and gets in the way of stuff like that.

Having said that though, in the late 80's there was a Belgian Air Force pilot who had been doing displays for about nine years in an Alpha Jet. He did the most excruciatingly slow and precise aileron roll that never failed to leave me open-mouthed in admiration. His nose never wavered from its position on the horizon and he never gained or lost a foot of altitude. Simply amazing.

Strega...you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to high altitude maneuvering. None. Probably because you've never done it.

[. ._]

Incidentally, I found this awesome youtube video on how to do a barrel roll. I think it's pretty darned good!

How to do a BARREL ROLL

Enjoy!

-istp

[Hedley]

Note in the video that the path described by the barrel roll involves substantial vertical maneuvering - it's really just a spiralled loop, with probably at least +4G on the meter during the entry and exit.

Contrast that with an old-lady aileron roll. Viewed from above, the path of an aircraft over the ground flying an aileron roll describes a straight line. Very different from a barrel roll, and far easier on the aircraft: +2G is the max you need.

[jjj]

10K Dash incident and the 550 roll.

Defending people that crashed a dash 8 of the 10k runway is along the same lines as crashing a C550 trying to roll it..

BOTH ARE CLEAR ILLUSTRATIONS OF INCOMPETANCE!

I'll remember that comment Strega. 20 bucks says you'll be eating crow when the TSB report comes out. I think it will be a clear illustration of your INCOMPETENCE to understand a world of aviation that is bigger and more complicated than your own.

JJJ

[Strega]

20 bucks says you'll be eating crow when the TSB report comes out

So then by your thougts, its ok to run off the end of a 10k runway with a dash 8?

Is it ok for the Colgan air pilots to crash and burn becasue they flew into some ice?

Its ok for guys at superior and orca (note I say "guys" with respect to orca) to forget to lower the landing gear?

Im not saying one is not permitted to make mistakes,, but I would say all of the above, including the botched roll in the C550 are clearly not mistakes,, they are nothing but supreme examples of what I call incompetance...

[jjj]

20 bucks says you'll be eating crow when the TSB report comes out

So then by your thougts, its ok to run off the end of a 10k runway with a dash 8?

Is it ok for the Colgan air pilots to crash and burn becasue they flew into some ice?

Its ok for guys at superior and orca (note I say "guys" with respect to orca) to forget to lower the landing gear?

Im not saying one is not permitted to make mistakes,, but I would say all of the above, including the botched roll in the C550 are clearly not mistakes,, they are nothing but supreme examples of what I call incompetance...

Strega,

I'm not sure what in my posts led you to believe that I think it's ok to take a Dash off then end of a runway. In the case of the Dash there may be some extenuating circumstances that contributed to this error. I also suspect there is some flawed company procedures vis a vis non precision approaches that allowed a single error to cause such a terrible outcome. Like I said, wait for the report and see. Likely the finding won't say that the pilots were incompetent unlike the Colgan TSB report which essentially concluded that the Captain was incompetent. He pulled a flying airplane into a stall in response to a stick pusher. As far as landing gear and the fellows at superior - I'm not going to threadjack or exhaust an argument that has already played out on this forum.

Grouping the Dash pilots in with the Colgan Captain and the 550 botched roll guys is inappropriate and probable grounds for lawsuit. I'd recommend altering your posts in case those guys have some trigger happy lawyers.

Peace out brother.

[Strega]

JJJ Im not trying to threadjack anything,,


Im just trying to make a point to the new 20 something pilots that are about to enter the industy, and for them to realize what is acceptable and what is not.

[Cat Driver]

Grouping the Dash pilots in with the Colgan Captain and the 550 botched roll guys is inappropriate and probable grounds for lawsuit. I'd recommend altering your posts in case those guys have some trigger happy lawyers.

Peace out brother.

Fascinating discussion going on here and it truly takes some interesting twists.

Would their company really be all that wild about their pilots going public and defending their competence before the report is made public....or for that matter after the report is out.

One thing for sure such a lawsuit would make for interesting entertainment for the average person out here.

[iflyforpie]

Anybody else who thinks they are Bob Hoover or . Yeager who performs these stunts and pretend that they are okay deserve to be ostracized from every circle of aviation. This is a far worse display of airmanship than running off the end of a runway on a low vis approach or forgetting the gear.

Those two examples are mistakes. Rolling a plane that isn't certified for it (and most likely with passengers on board) is a conscious and willful decision to break the law and risk lives and property that aren't your own...

[jjj]

JJJ Im not trying to threadjack anything,,


Im just trying to make a point to the new 20 something pilots that are about to enter the industy, and for them to realize what is acceptable and what is not.

I'm sure the newer pilots have a pretty good idea of what is acceptable or not on some of these larger issues. In fact I myself 18 years ago had a pretty good idea that gear down and putting her on the runway was a sound idea - hadn't even started me private's yet.

Thanks for the pearls of wisdom Strega, I'm sure that all across the Country - from Pacific Coastal to Seneca and beyond - that the young aviators were taking notes after reading your posts.

The only thing that you are demonstrating is that it's ok to armchair quarterback pilots like those involved in the Dash 10k runway incident with only a fraction of the relevant information at your disposal.

Keep up the mentoring Strega, you're doing a nice job advancing Aviation in Canada.


JJJ

[Unit 969]

NTSB: Pilots need air-hazard skills
ACCIDENT PREVENTION
By Alan Levin, USA TODAY

Accident investigators say new flight simulators could help correct the biggest killer in aviation: pilots who can't recover from out-of-control situations like the one that killed 50 people in a crash near Buffalo last year.
Pilots at airlines receive almost no hands-on training in how to recover from aerodynamic stalls and other extreme scenarios, according to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). The reason for the glaring shortfall is that current flight simulators, the backbone of airline training programs, cannot accurately reproduce such calamities.
Years of research in the military and NASA has led to new simulators that accurately represent how planes behave in stalls, severe icing and other crash scenarios, according to the NTSB and scientists - but there is no federal requirement to use those simulators.
The machines could help with one of the most vexing and deadly problems facing aviation. A USA TODAY review of NTSB accident reports over the past decade found that 317 of the 433 airline fatalities on U.S. carriers since 2000 - or 73% - could have been prevented with better simulator training. Around the world, planes that went out of control and crashed killed 1,991 people from 1999 through 2008, according to Boeing. That is more than twice that of the second-biggest category, accidentally flying into a mountain or the ground.
In the crash near Buffalo on Feb. 12, 2009, a pilot jerked the plane into a steep climb that stalled the wings. The proper way to recover would have been to lower the plane's nose, but the pilot kept trying to pull the nose up, according to the NTSB. The plane struck a house, killing all 49 aboard and a man in the home.
Expanded simulator training "is crucial if we want pilots to recognize and respond appropriately to these deadly stall upset events," NTSB Chairwoman Debbie Hersman said. The safety agency endorsed enhanced simulators for pilot training last month, and it is up to federal regulators to require them.
The Air Line Pilots Association, the nation's largest pilots union, says better simulators and other training improvements can reduce accidents.
"There's no excuse not to" use the new technology, said Bryan Burks, who heads the union's committee to improve training for handling out-of-control aircraft.
Even advocates of the improved simulators say they are not foolproof. For instance, the machines can't reproduce violent motions that a real plane encounters when it goes out of control.
Federal regulators have ordered improvements in simulators and are in the process of studying ways to enhance pilot training. However, they are not completely sold on the new simulators.
John McGraw, deputy director of the Federal Aviation Administration's Flight Standards division, said the agency would prefer to focus on training that helps pilots avoid losing control. "It is too early for us to make a determination whether we need to change something," McGraw said.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/ ... ning_N.htm

[Hedley]

I thought this was more interesting: http://vimeo.com/1778399

[BoostedNihilist]

come on guys, threadjacking is not permitted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0k7XXv16g4

[RVgrin]

Guys, take it easy on Stega. He tried to remain humble early in the thread:

I have personally been in a lear 25 that has rolled ...

before being forced to admit to have personally executed a roll in a C550. At FL340.

anyway....

The Citation in the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFmlm8ZDVcM

looks like it is doing an Aileron roll.

The accident Citation was allegedly doing a Barrel Roll.

Stega, would you please clarify which type of roll you performed at FL340? I want to make sure it is possible before trying it myself. Or are both "easy"?

[Hedley]

it is doing an Aileron roll. The accident Citation was allegedly doing a Barrel Roll

There's a difference?

[Strega]

I dont think there is either,,

a roll is a roll,, all you have to do is go upsidedown right?

[Hedley]

I'm not sure. Here's a torque roll:

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/acb_torq.wmv

Here a four-point roll:

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/acb_roll.wmv

I don't see any difference between the two, do you?
Both were pretty easy to do.

This was even easier. Here's a roll in a jet, entered at the surface:

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/roll.jpg

It all looks the same to me (shrug)