Afghanistan 2011

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:38 pm

Guess I'll hear more about it in the morning but I hear breaking news of a US chopper down in Afghanistan - no details.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/163654.html

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:55 pm

Fling Wing wrote:This is really fascinating STL, I've really enjoyed these pictures, they give a realistic view of everyday life there.

I'm wondering if you've seen any "extreme" kite fliers there? I've been reading a blackhawk pilots blog, and apparently they've really gotten into the sport since it has once again been allowed, and they compete to reach amazing heights where they're occasionally hit by passing helicopters. I find this interesting how they're not all "bad" guys like the typical media portrays them.

It seems that the really bad guys are the ones in power, the ones we support and pay...

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:19 am

Expat wrote:
Fling Wing wrote:This is really fascinating STL, I've really enjoyed these pictures, they give a realistic view of everyday life there.

I'm wondering if you've seen any "extreme" kite fliers there? I've been reading a blackhawk pilots blog, and apparently they've really gotten into the sport since it has once again been allowed, and they compete to reach amazing heights where they're occasionally hit by passing helicopters. I find this interesting how they're not all "bad" guys like the typical media portrays them.
It seems that the really bad guys are the ones in power, the ones we support and pay...

Fling Wing,

In my experience, rarely are "all" of any one group good or bad. At the end of the day, this is not our country, and the "government," and I use the term loosely, which we are propping up/supporting here is not representative of the average Afghan as Expat can attest to. So the term "bad" can quite easily be applied to us in this scenario, and frankly it is by a large number of people. It is worth remembering that perspective is everything, and ours is but one.

As for the kites, no, I haven't encountered any just yet. It's been windy as hell the last few days however, so with luck I may see some tomorrow in the village I'm going to be in, weather permitting of course. I am anxious to see what our reception will be like when we arrive, as no ISAF troops have been to this place in over three years, and apparently last time did not go so well. I can't say anymore than that at the moment, but either way it'll be fascinating.

Moose47 and Biz,

It is precisely disagreements like yours that bother me.

There needs to be separation of the mission, its political purpose, moral and ethical implications, and the soldiers fighting in it. They are not one in the same, and discourse on the validity of the mission is critical to the functioning of our society. To attempt to quash the conversation by suggesting that ones needs to have served in the military is ridiculous, but it is equally ridiculous to assume that the soldiers fighting here are not well aware of what they are doing. As Moose says, I have not met one yet that would not be back to support his/her fellow serviceman in an instant, but it is an enormous leap to suggest that means they all agree with the war, or don't think about it. Some of the conversations I've had as recently as 20 minutes ago support that. I cannot however report them, as it is against the rules for both me, and the people serving. This is partly why this issue is so murky.

I hate the simplistic views often put forth by both sides of this debate/issue, as once again, this is anything but a simple situation. That said, in order to dive into the complexities of this, we need to stop taking sides or entrenching ourselves in our views which are often uninformed, and start listening. That goes for civilians, military, press, our side, their side, the works. Expat may not pull many punches in his opinion of what is happening here, but I will say that his is an informed one, and much, much closer to the truth of the matter than many would be comfortable with.

The idea of being uncomfortable is important. To be put in a situation where ones preconceived notions are tested, or debunked is uncomfortable, but I believe it is critical to the engagement of the public on this issue, and any other for that matter. There is a long list of unsavoury things about this conflict, on both sides, and while I personally am disgusted by what has gone on here in the last decade, there is no doubt about the respect I have for the people serving here - on either side of the fence. People have an endless number of reasons for enlisting, and they are personal and to be respected, the same can be said for the Afghans. I cannot imagine fighting all this modern technology with an AK and some RPG's, yet there they are, doing it everyday. That not only has my respect, but the utmost respect of every ground soldier I've talked to about it, or at least the ones who get outside the wire.

If this thread accomplishes anything at all, I hope it is to make people question what they believe to be "truth," open minds to other perspectives, and realize that complex issues require complex and nuanced conversations and that is perfectly OK. Modern media and political discourse is embarrassingly simplified, and I honestly hope that by sharing some of this with you that you are able to further your own engagement and understanding of what is happening here. There is little point to come here, experience things, analyze them, and give you answers. The process of arriving at those answers is as important as the answer itself. There is a great deal - despite the amount I've written on here so far - that I have left unsaid, and a great deal more that I don't have the answers for, if there are any at all. A certain level of factual understanding must be present, but it is the engagement that I hope to stimulate here.

I just played hockey with some really great guys, all of whom serve Canada. I spent my day with another really great set of guys from America, all of whom are out as I type supporting a bunch of Special Forces who stirred up a shit storm and are in some trouble, ok, a lot of trouble. A few days ago I spent the day chatting with a bunch of really great Afghans out in a village, yesterday ANA on the base. There is little point in simplifying issues and speaking in generalizations - it serves no purpose in furthering ones understanding of these things as they are infinitely complex.

stl

Moose47 · Post by **Moose47** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:24 am

<<<sky's the limit Post subject: Re: Afghanistan 2011Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:19 pm >>

Thank you sir for your very rational post. Sometimes I let my emotions get the better of me.

If you get a chance while at KAF, can you say hello to everyone over at “Task Force Silver Dart”? We have a number of personnel from here deployed there. Just say North Bay says hello.

Take care and come home safe.

Cheers...Chris

'Pro Patria'

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:28 am

Hi Chris,

No problem, it's an emotional subject, and not just for the military people. Every day I spend here lends considerable food for thought, and I just keep trying to stay open to it. The best way I've found to do that is to embrace the complexities of this whole thing and make peace with the fact that while there may not be one silver bullet type answer, or one "correct" way to view things, there doesn't necessarily have to be. I'm not a big Capital "T" truth kind of guy anyway... so I guess that goes to follow. I'm starting to arrange my various points of view like some mental CD stack...

I haven't had any dealings with the TF Silver Dart people here, but should I run into any I'll give them my best. TF Fucon from the Air Wing have been my usual companions when not with the Americans.

Take care,

stl

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:26 am

A few more faces before bed.

stl

: GTL_2968.jpg (359.86 KiB) Viewed 1240 times

: GTL_3049.jpg (165.13 KiB) Viewed 1240 times

: GTL_2970-2.jpg (357.63 KiB) Viewed 1240 times

: GTL_5380.jpg (377.13 KiB) Viewed 1240 times

Beefitarian · Post by **Beefitarian** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:21 am

Thanks for the thread STL and especially the pictures.

sky's the limit wrote:There is little point in simplifying issues and speaking in generalizations - it serves no purpose in furthering ones understanding of these things as they are infinitely complex.

Truth.

Sometimes things can't be explained or agreed upon because of the complexeties. I just can't know another person's experiences. "Walk a mile in their shoes..."

Sometimes we need to slimpify things to make sense of a day.

I think that sometimes something profound happens and everything becomes simple, right and good for a brief time.

Your last image of that guy sitting on the ramp at the back of that transport is a good one. I had the fortune to be in the back of a C-140 with the ramp down for some CASARA spotter's training once. Looking at the image gives me emotions that cause me to feel like that moment you captured is both simple and infinitely complex all at once and it seems like one of those moments that make everything worth while.

Thanks again for sharing.

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:16 pm

CBC Canada Very sad outcome for this young soldier.

Breaking News USA report slams Canadians for hiring - hired guns with ties to Afghan warlords who in 2007 were engaged in "murder, kidnapping, bribery and anti-Coalition activities."

As for 'disagreeing' I am not the one with the 'Your either with us or without us attitude'.
I'm quite content to express my opinions - back them up with facts - and at the same time be open to hear anyone else's opinions - particularly when they back it up with factual information.

Nor do I live in the 70's!!!, or get upset and loose it - I've no problem discussing, beliefs, facts, and separating Canadian Troops on the ground in Afghanistan, and the action that they are involved in.

Harper recently stated that Canadians - including himself are tiring of the nearly ten years involvement in Afghanistan. Interesting that Moose47 would comment on injured troops that want to return 'to finish the job' - when first Harper is pulling the Canadian Troops out 'of the job' they've been doing since 2006 - and there was never a clear cut 'job to finish' from the very start in 2001.

Dafur - I'd rather see the Billions wasted in Afghanistan do some good in Dafur. Just load
up the troops - get on a C-17 to Sudan - and be Canadian!!!
Incidentally the photographer - 60 days after receiving the Pulitzer Prize for this photo -
killed himself - he said you can't see things like this and be unchanged. (Also referring to
other events he had witnessed).

Moose47 · Post by **Moose47** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:44 pm

Bizjets

You really are naive about Darfur aren't you. If Canada sent troops, it would make the 'Stan' look like a church picnic. Would you be still be so supportive if they were getting butchered there by groups like SLA/M, the JEM and Janjaweed militia?

We are not welcome in Darfur. We offered to send 100 military advisors but the offer was flatly rejected. The Sudanese response was: "The unwavering position of the Sudanese government, in this connection, is categorically rejecting any deployment of non-African military personnel in Darfur region." Are you with me so far Biz???? The Sudanese government did however state "any logistical and financial support is most welcomed".

I welcome your next left-wing bleeding heart rant.

'Pro Patria'

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:27 pm

Afghanistan didn't want us either

There was more support for Dafur than Afghanistan from the people who pay for the military in this country - just no US pressure to go in. In a perfect world we wouldn't be needed in either.

Guess things are a bit slower in North Bay?

http://www.visioncritical.com/public-op ... in_darfur/

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:48 pm

No idea?

Though I've read that there is so much opium in Afghanistan now - that for the first time heroin is now cheaper than hash.

-----------------------------------

As for Dafur - unless you know otherwise, I believe there are actually 40 UN military advisors on the ground right now in Dafur - reporting back to Canada.

Also - Dafur - unless something else goes upside down in this world, most likely will be the next destination for Canadian troops.

Unfortunately after our involvement in Afghanistan - I think our Blue Helmet Peace Keeping days may be over - and our battle proven troops will arrive in Sudan with guns in hand.

I would have preferred our Peace Keepers.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:32 pm

bizjets101 wrote:No idea?

Though I've read that there is so much opium in Afghanistan now - that for the first time heroin is now cheaper than hash.

-----------------------------------

As for Dafur - unless you know otherwise, I believe there are actually 40 UN military advisors on the ground right now in Dafur - reporting back to Canada.

Also - Dafur - unless something else goes upside down in this world, most likely will be the next destination for Canadian troops.

Unfortunately after our involvement in Afghanistan - I think our Blue Helmet Peace Keeping days may be over - and our battle proven troops will arrive in Sudan with guns in hand.

I would have preferred our Peace Keepers.

Source?

When this was a hot issue last year we were told there's no way we were going. I don't think anyone could say where the world will be in 2 years, which is when planning would start for the next big deployment. As Moose47 said, we are not welcome there by anyone, including the government the UN is supporting, not removing. There really isn't a lot of support for Darfur as a mission from the general public either. Kinda like the Liberal party, it gets talked about because it's different from what we're doing now but it's also not about to win the election.

Also, soldiers are armed on peacekeeping missions, but governed by a much tighter ROE. You really want to send our guys to stand between two armed enemies without a way to defend themselves? How would they keep the peace; angry letters and statements of condemnation? I hope you were speaking figuratively?

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:17 pm

There is no chance we go to Darfur. There is nothing there of value, unlike here.

As for here, can we please let go of the idea that this is some sort of "just" war? It is not. As Bizjets said, were we judging which wars to propagate and which situations to leave alone on an ethical basis, or from a standpoint of "helping," there are numerous destinations we'd be involved in long before Afghanistan, mostly in Africa, but that is simply not the case. Like here, many of those situations exist largely due to our past involvement.

I really wish you guys could look at this without staring through your political lenses, left or right. I just don't understand the need to see things through such a structured outlook, because the world just doesn't work that way.

Anyway, I have my first C130J ride coming up in an hour or two, looking forward to checking it out.

stl

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:40 pm

sky's the limit wrote: Anyway, I have my first C130J ride coming up in an hour or two, looking forward to checking it out.

stl

Ask the FO to use extra jam for you.

burhead1 · Post by **burhead1** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:54 pm

I have my first C130J ride coming up in an hour or two, looking forward to checking it out

Sweet have a great ride
Thanks for the pics the side of the war we don't normally get to see

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:19 pm

I just don't understand the need to see things through such a structured outlook, because the world just doesn't work that way.

Gotcha. Dafur - only time will tell - until 9/11 nobody expected to be in Afghanistan, and until 1979 most expected USA to be in IRAN - so anything is possible.

Anyway,

The C130J sounds like a nice ride!!!

Just wondering what jets you see over there?? Is everything helicopters and C130J's - any C130 gunships over there??, hopefully they don't need them.

As for your trip into the 'unfriendly' town the other day - how did that go?? Just wondering how the feeling was different from your visit in the 'friendly' town the day before???

As opposed to the porn question regarding animals!, just wondering about dogs in the towns - are they over run with dogs - or are they missing??

What about handicapped people, according to statistics, 1 in 30 is handicapped from 30 odd years of conflict. Do you see a lot of handicapped people in the streets??

As for our troops, is there any animosity about our Government removing them from a combat roll??, or do they just roll with the punches???

Is there any talk of actual al-Qaeda members on the ground in the Kandahar region - or is it basically just Taliban and their supporters.

Is there any talk about what would happen if and when America loses interest?? My knowledge of war zones - if you befriend the 'enemy' - once you leave and the Taliban return - is any one concerned about what may become of these people.

You've already stated there are friendly and unfriendly 'towns', so for every town we befriend do we not put them in jeopardy in the long run????

Unless of course America is staying forever - which leads to my final question - given the size of Afghanistan - and the population - in order to remain, and affect true change - you'd need hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground - at least 300,000. And that is never going to happen.

So how do the Canadians on the ground feel after they are gone, and eventually after the American's are gone - what do they think is going to happen????

(Heh my questions are all over the place, but I'm trying to ask non-political questions?)

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:52 pm

Source?

When this was a hot issue last year we were told there's no way we were going. I don't think anyone could say where the world will be in 2 years, which is when planning would start for the next big deployment. As Moose47 said, we are not welcome there by anyone, including the government the UN is supporting, not removing. There really isn't a lot of support for Darfur as a mission from the general public either. Kinda like the Liberal party, it gets talked about because it's different from what we're doing now but it's also not about to win the election.

Also, soldiers are armed on peacekeeping missions, but governed by a much tighter ROE. You really want to send our guys to stand between two armed enemies without a way to defend themselves? How would they keep the peace; angry letters and statements of condemnation? I hope you were speaking figuratively?

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 02891.html

http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/p ... ex-eng.asp

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missi ... acts.shtml

Task Force Sudan

Task Force Sudan is the Canadian Forces contingent in UNMIS. Commanded by Commander Don McIntyre, it comprises 30 Canadian Forces members, including 20 serving as United Nations Military Observers (UNMOs) at team sites across southern Sudan, eight on the staff at UNMIS Headquarters in Khartoum, and two with the Canadian support element in Khartoum.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:13 am

bizjets101 wrote: http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 02891.html

I agree with him that if Sudan is America's next serious adventure we'll probably tag along - especially if it's a Conservative government. If the Liberals are in power when troops are freed up from Afghanistan, they will take the first fish the UN dangles so as to show we can 'get back to our roots' etc and distinguish ourselves from the US and also to have an excuse when the US asks us to join them on their next war. Personally I think the US will have their hands full of massive budget cuts, Iran, and the rest of the middle east to go to Sudan. Especially since, while the CF is participating in the UN mission there, I don't believe the US is involved right now. The CF has a small hand in many UN missions though and that alone isn't an indication that a combat force is going to follow. As long as the government there is explicitly asking the west to stay out of it, I don't think Sudan has enough resources or strategic value for the US to get their hands dirty.

Around the office there certainly isn't a lot of enthusiasm for Sudan, though we will of course go wherever the order says to go.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:32 am

bizjets101 wrote: Anyway,

The C130J sounds like a nice ride!!!

Just wondering what jets you see over there?? Is everything helicopters and C130J's - any C130 gunships over there??, hopefully they don't need them.

As for your trip into the 'unfriendly' town the other day - how did that go?? Just wondering how the feeling was different from your visit in the 'friendly' town the day before???

As opposed to the porn question regarding animals!, just wondering about dogs in the towns - are they over run with dogs - or are they missing??

What about handicapped people, according to statistics, 1 in 30 is handicapped from 30 odd years of conflict. Do you see a lot of handicapped people in the streets??

As for our troops, is there any animosity about our Government removing them from a combat roll??, or do they just roll with the punches???

Is there any talk of actual al-Qaeda members on the ground in the Kandahar region - or is it basically just Taliban and their supporters.

Is there any talk about what would happen if and when America loses interest?? My knowledge of war zones - if you befriend the 'enemy' - once you leave and the Taliban return - is any one concerned about what may become of these people.

You've already stated there are friendly and unfriendly 'towns', so for every town we befriend do we not put them in jeopardy in the long run????

Unless of course America is staying forever - which leads to my final question - given the size of Afghanistan - and the population - in order to remain, and affect true change - you'd need hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground - at least 300,000. And that is never going to happen.

So how do the Canadians on the ground feel after they are gone, and eventually after the American's are gone - what do they think is going to happen????

(Heh my questions are all over the place, but I'm trying to ask non-political questions?)

Somebody been on the Red Bulls??? Lol...

I just arrived up north, and actually have some time, so I'll try to answer some/most of your questions.

The C130J is indeed very cool, but I can't tell you what it's like to fly on... Last minute opportunity came up to fly on an older model with the Air Nat Guard that was doing a combat drop in the one of the two most difficult mountain DZ's in the country. Who would turn that down???

Very interesting to watch the flight planning, see how the crew worked out a solution to the issue of getting into a very tight DZ at 5500ft with 16,000ft peaks all around. I was really torn about staying up on the flight deck, or bolting to watch a pile of stuff launch off the back - I chose the latter, and it was worth it. Really neat to see this kind of thing up close, and there was a regular AF drop specialist on board advising the crew, he was very forthcoming with letting me in on the whole process. I took a couple crappy Iphone videos out the back end, but it was more of a "you kind of had to be there" type of thing. I can see why they sling with helicopters whenever possible though!

As for jets, this country is just one giant airshow. I often just sit on the flight line and watch all manner of civi and military hardware go by, it's literally endless. Hands down the most interesting right now is one of only two NASA owned, heavily modified, ex-British Canberra bombers in existance. I have seen it before, but it is now flying regular missions here and it is a very nifty aircraft. As a kid I was buzzed by a pair of them in the Scottish Boarder lands where I was hiking with my Father. The unclassified part of its mission is using various ISR packages to identify explosive residue from very high altitudes to aid in both IED and IDF (rocket) location. The Colonel who was telling me about it said "it is changing how we do business." So I gather it is working. He wouldn't tell me the rest, but I have heard rumours from other sources about the other parts of its mission, but I certainly won't propagate those here.

The unfriendly town mission was cancelled, was back on again, and cancelled one more time, so I can't answer that one I'm afraid. I dearly would have loved to have been on that one however. The craziest part of the day was they were going to put on an air assault for counter IED operations solely for my benefit... With the unit literally having less than two weeks left, there was no way I was going to let that happen. I'm not sure what I would have done if someone had been hurt or killed. All in all, they were a great unit to spend time with, and as a group who are out in the thick of it all the time, I can say they are all very happy to be leaving.

Dogs? Mmm, no more than you would find anywhere else, but they are VERY big. We all carried pen flares as they are very aggressive. They seem to respond to them well, and shooting them doesn't go over well with the locals as you can imagine.

Handicapped and women are not to be seen, at least in the villages in my experience. I'm trying to remember if there are many in Kabul, but perhaps Expat can better field that one?

As far as Al-Qaeda goes, there are very few around, if any from what I understand talking to intelligence officers, and it has been that way for a long time. It should be noted that Talibs are not just of the religious extreme type, they draw from many people who just don't want us here, to pin it solely on extremism is a misrepresentation.

"Friendly" and "Unfriendly" aren't really terms I'm comfortable with as they over-simplify the situation and the reasonings for those feelings. The village we were going to visit the other day for example. The village elder has stated ISAF are unequivocally unwelcome there. The reason? An air-strike killed his son about 5yrs ago in an mistaken drop... sort of goes to follow doesn't it? I have a bit of time here, but not enough to really get into that one.

As for your question about "America staying," well, I would have to say that despite all the political rhetoric to the contrary, the plans here for the U.S. are VERY long term. This bears itself out in the infrastructure investments being made. I was talking about this very subject with a Major today, and he can't see an end in sight either. Not sure anyone with open eyes could see it differently. Given that I have already talked about this at length, I'll keep it short, but we are not here to make things better as a primary goal, we are not here to end hostilities, we are not here to depose the Taliban - we are here for strategic purposes primarily, and it makes no logical sense to leave if ones primary purpose is be present in an area long term.

As for your last:

It is actually the subject of an article I'm writing at the moment which I hope to have picked up by the Walrus or Macleans. There are a few very interesting sides to this equation; on one side the public views presented by gov't, soldiers, and the greater military on the subject, and then what you hear in the few candid, illegal (as per embedded reporting contracts) conversations you have with soldiers, and the graffiti that adorns latrine stalls on bases all over the country. They conflict in a very big way.... I'll leave it at that for now.

I don't mind political discourse, but I mind the tone it tends to take around here sometimes!

stl

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:42 am

Super Bowl Starbucks . . .

Haven't read your post yet but wanted to post this link . . .

On Real Time Friday night, Bill Maher interview Egyptian-born journalist Mona Eltahawy about the current revolution going on in her country.

That there is a "succession of old men" that have been propped up by the United States, who have shut down any type of opposition except for the kind based on religion.

"This entire revolution is about telling these old men who have strangled our country, '@#$! you.' And I'm telling your administration, 'Let them go' and let us take our country back."

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:04 am

FlightAware tracking the NASA Martin WB-57 Canberra.

NASA WB-57 from NASA website.

Moose47 · Post by **Moose47** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:18 am

<<<TheCheez Post subject: Re: Afghanistan 2011Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:13 am

Rank 5

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:53 am
Posts: 348
Location: Trenton bizjets101 wrote:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 02891.html

I agree with him that if Sudan is America's next serious adventure we'll probably tag along - especially if it's a Conservative government. If the Liberals are in power when troops are freed up from Afghanistan, they will take the first fish the UN dangles so as to show we can 'get back to our roots' etc>>>

And what would our roots be?

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:01 pm

War is a scam for the rich, why are rural canadian kids dying in rural 3rd World country for a bunch of opium farmer.

Looks who's getting rich. You think Harper weeps when they die?

He is a complicit WAR CRIMINAL.

Sun Feb. 06 2011 1:57:44 PM | The Canadian Press

Canada's hired guns in Afghanistan slammed in U.S. report
Font size: Bigger |Smaller DEL.ICIO.USDIGGFACEBOOKTWITTER

Sun illuminates the Peace Tower as a visitor makes their way onto Parliament Hill in Ottawa, Wednesday, Nov. 3, 2010. (Adrian Wyld / THE CANADIAN PRESS)
OTTAWA — Canada spent more than $41 million on hired guns in Afghanistan over four years, much of it going to security companies slammed by the U.S. Senate for having warlords on the payroll.

Both the Defence and Foreign Affairs departments have employed 11 security contractors in Kabul and Kandahar since 2006, but have kept quiet about the details.

Now documents tabled in Parliament at the request of the New Democrats provide the first comprehensive picture of the use of private contractors, which have been accused of adding to the chaos in Afghanistan.

The records show Foreign Affairs paid nearly $8 million to ArmorGroup Securities Ltd., recently cited in a U.S. Senate investigation as relying on Afghan warlords who in 2007 were engaged in "murder, kidnapping, bribery and anti-Coalition activities."

The company, which has since been taken over by G4S Risk Management, provided security around the Canadian embassy in Kabul and guarded diplomats.

Tundra SCA stands on guard for the Defence Department outside Canadian military forward operating bases and has collected more than $5.3 million.

The U.S. Senate report included Tundra on a list of companies that poach staff from Afghan security forces -- something that has long angered President Hamid Karzai, who last year moved to eject all private security from the country.

More than $438,000 of the Afghan-owned, Canadian-run company's expenses remain secret, for operational security reasons. But Tundra's website, unlike other contractors, promotes its intelligence "gathering and analyzing" abilities.

A Kandahar warlord, with links to former governor Gul Agha Sherzai, earned $2.5 million since 2008 providing security outside of the provincial reconstruction base.

Col. Haji Toorjan employed a 40-man militia. But there are questions about how much was spent for his service because the documents tabled in the House of Commons are not consistent with access-to-information records and published reports that show he was on the payroll in 2007.

More than $3.4 million went to Washington, D.C.-based Blue Hackle to guard the governor of Kandahar and train his security detail. Canada started paying that expense in 2008, after Karzai replaced the notorious Asadullah Khalid, who was accused of human-rights abuses and had his own private militia known as Brigade 888.

All of the contracting happened even though the federal government has no overall policy or legislation to govern the use of hired guns -- unlike other countries, notably the United States, which has imposed strict accountability guidelines on its contractors.

Even with those rules, the American system was found lacking by U.S. senators, who heard complaints from NATO that there was "little awareness of money flow" and that some of the contracts were "enriching powerbrokers, undercutting counterinsurgency efforts and delegitimizing the Afghan government."

The Canadian International Development Agency, which delivers aid projects in Afghanistan, said it does not employ security companies, but agencies that it hires to deliver programs do.

One of those contractors, SNC Lavalin, hired the Watan Group to guard one of Ottawa's signature development projects, the Dahla dam. The company, owned by relatives of Karzai, was recently blacklisted by the U.S. military.

A spokesman for the Defence Department declined comment on Friday.

Foreign Affairs said it has no concerns about the record of the ArmorGroup's new owners, despite the criticism in Washington and noted the company had signed on to a non-binding international arrangement of best practises for armed contractors.

"All private security contractors employed by Canada are known to the Afghan Government, and are subject to Afghan law," said Jean-Bruno Villeneuve, a department spokesman, in an email late Saturday night.

"G4S Risk Management is a signatory of the International Code of Conduct for Private Security Service Providers, which was signed in Geneva this past November."

He said the department has no plans to draft an oversight policy and believes the current reporting mechanism -- applied through contract language -- are sufficient.

G4S Risk Management did not respond to an e-mail request for comment.

The NDP's foreign-affairs critic said it's appalling Ottawa had no mechanism to govern hired guns and charged that what the country tried to accomplish in terms of rule of law in Kandahar has suffered.

"It undermines our credibility," said Paul Dewar. "Afghans are not stupid. They see these people. They see what they're doing and they know who is paying them."

Opposition parties have throughout the war mounted attacks on the use of contractors, but never had a complete picture from which to draw conclusions. Even with the release of figures and contract names, Dewar said there are still many important questions left unanswered.

"We've spent tens of millions of dollars on what I would consider to be some very dubious characters, to do what?" he said. "Foreign Affairs, in particular, needs to be held to account. I'm blown away by what I'm seeing here."

Dewar questioned why contractors were needed in the first place. But a defence expert, who has written extensively on the use of hired guns in war zones, said they are fact of life in the age of all-volunteer armies.

The contractors, usually ex-soldiers, are most often used in a defensive manner, taking up guard duties that free combat troops, said researcher Dave Perry in Ottawa.

He also cautioned that moral outrage over unsavoury alliances with local warlords should be tempered.

In conflict zones "I think it would be hard to find somebody who could provide credible security force that did not have something in their past that somebody could point to and say that they've done something inappropriate," said Perry.

What is needed, he said, are concrete guidelines.

There are an estimated 40,000 armed security contractors operating in Afghanistan. Karzai ordered them out of the country last fall, but concern about how aid and development groups would protect themselves forced him to back down.

Instead, the Afghan government has demanded that firms register with the government and begin paying taxes.

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:39 pm

All war is based upon a lie...never forget.

Source for Colin Powell’s Fake UN Claim of Iraq-al-Qaeda Connection Dies in Libyan Prison
Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, the man who told of a phony connection between former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda while being tortured, has died in a Libyan prison, allegedly of suicide. Al-Libi was the unnamed source that former Secretary of State Colin Powell and other Bush administration officials relied upon prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 to demonstrate that Saddam was helping the terrorist organization behind the September 11 attacks. Powell’s February 5, 2003, speech before the United Nations was largely based on al-Libi’s coerced testimony, even though intelligence officials in the U.S. government questioned it at the time.

After being captured in Pakistan in late 2001, al-Libi disappeared into the CIA’s secret rendition program and wound up in Egypt, where interrogators beat him and threatened to bury him alive. During this torture, al-Libi claimed Saddam’s government had trained al-Qaeda terrorists in the use of chemical and biological weapons—a claim he recanted after being returned to CIA custody in 2004.

When President George W. Bush, in 2006, ordered the relocation of many of the detainees held in secret CIA prisons to Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, al-Libi was among the missing. Human rights groups suspected that he had been shipped to Libya in an effort to hide the “embarrassment” he represented to the Bush administration. The first independent confirmation of al-Libi’s whereabouts came only a couple weeks before his death, when a researcher for Human Rights Watch came across al-Libi on April 27 while checking on the condition of other prisoners in Libya’s Abu Salim prison. Al-Libi refused to be interviewed, and would only say, “Where were you when I was being tortured in American jails?”

bizjets101 · Post by **bizjets101** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:34 pm

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/163978.html Bush 41 in the news . . .