Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[Indanao]

Pffffffffftt

[grimey]

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/201201 ... on-120111/

Crash shows poor aviation safety on reserves: chiefs

The Canadian Press
Date: Wed. Jan. 11 2012 6:08 PM ET
WINNIPEG — Aboriginal leaders say a plane crash that killed four people on a remote northern Ontario reserve shows the need for better aviation standards, emergency response and weather equipment in isolated native communities.

Grand Chief Stan Beardy, who represents dozens of northern Ontario First Nations including North Spirit Lake where the crash occurred, said that reserve doesn't even have a beacon to guide pilots in poor weather.

Anyone know what an AWOS or (if we want to create a job on the reserve) a weather observer costs? What about an RNAV?

Yes, the crash shouldn't have happened regardless of what was available, but having accurate wx and any approach would certainly help prevent some of this BS, or at least mitigate it.

[RATO]

AWOS units, full function with VHF transmitter and webcam = $100K

RNAV approach = $50K on the outside

[Doc]

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/201201 ... on-120111/

Crash shows poor aviation safety on reserves: chiefs

The Canadian Press
Date: Wed. Jan. 11 2012 6:08 PM ET
WINNIPEG — Aboriginal leaders say a plane crash that killed four people on a remote northern Ontario reserve shows the need for better aviation standards, emergency response and weather equipment in isolated native communities.

Grand Chief Stan Beardy, who represents dozens of northern Ontario First Nations including North Spirit Lake where the crash occurred, said that reserve doesn't even have a beacon to guide pilots in poor weather.

Anyone know what an AWOS or (if we want to create a job on the reserve) a weather observer costs? What about an RNAV?

Yes, the crash shouldn't have happened regardless of what was available, but having accurate wx and any approach would certainly help prevent some of this BS, or at least mitigate it.

Pretty easy answer. I don't want to appear insensitive, but if there's no approach, go there when the weather is VFR! There have been several accidents at reserves that DO have RNAV approaches. Go below a published approach you'll suffer the same results. Either you are going to abide by the minimums or you're not. But, by all means throw money at it. It's always the cure. Everybody feels better if they throw money at the problem. BUT Not having an AWAS or an RNAV approach is NOT THE PROBLEM!! And throwing money at is is NOT THE CURE!! Some people just don't get it.
It doesn't show "the need for better aviation standards, .....and weather equipment..." It does show the need for better air carriers. On a side note.....what kind of approach did Sky Care use to pick up and medevac the injured passenger? I know somebody else turned down the trip due to weather.....seems the lesson is NOT sinking in?

[cdnpilot77]

First part editted for being completely off topic. Bandaid

It's the culture of the industry not the infrastructure that's broken!

[grimey]

Doc, I wasn't suggesting that the lack of navaids, approaches, and wx was the problem, only that getting them might mitigate it to some extent. To be clear, the problem is pilots getting pushed into or accepting flights under conditions they shouldn't, and not turning around when shit hits the fan. But having 12-16 hours of wx obs a day would prevent crap like Riopka claiming the wx was ok when it clearly wasn't. Having an approach would at least allow some fool that went IFR with VFR fuel to land when his alternate was too far away, rather than crashing into a lake.

They're two separate problems, but solving one (a general lack of facilities on reserves) would help to mitigate the other. Low time pilots are going to be pushed into crap like this by operators who cut corners. It'd give them the ability to back up their refusal with a recent wx report, rather than a "it looks flyable" forecast, or a chance save their ass and that of their passengers when they didn't refuse. But no, it's not the problem that led to this accident.

[Doc]

cdnpilot77...that post will be gone in5,4,3,2,1....
There's a raw nerve there somewhere......truth hurts.

[Doc]

Doc, I wasn't suggesting that the lack of navaids, approaches, and wx was the problem, only that getting them might mitigate it to some extent. To be clear, the problem is pilots getting pushed into or accepting flights under conditions they shouldn't, and not turning around when shit hits the fan. But having 12-16 hours of wx obs a day would prevent crap like Riopka claiming the wx was ok when it clearly wasn't. Having an approach would at least allow some fool that went IFR with VFR fuel to land when his alternate was too far away, rather than crashing into a lake.

They're two separate problems, but solving one (a general lack of facilities on reserves) would help to mitigate the other. Low time pilots are going to be pushed into crap like this by operators who cut corners. It'd give them the ability to back up their refusal with a recent wx report, rather than a "it looks flyable" forecast, or a chance save their ass and that of their passengers when they didn't refuse. But no, it's not the problem that led to this accident.

Putting in navaids just gives @#$% like this %@#$^% more ammunition with which to "push" his pilots...."Look, there's a perfectly good RNAV there, and don't use a little freezing drizzle as an excuse...." Not having navaids actually gives the pilots a way out! Now, if they'd just grow the balls to use it?

Keep in mind, single pilot IFR, pretending to be VFR to save carrying IFR fuel. You want them Mickey Mousing their way to RNAV minimums? I don't.

[BEFAN5]

Approaches only make flying safer for pilots who chose to respect the approach. I will do lots of things to help my company, but I never break the law and never ever violate minimums.

I think we need to work to create a professional respect for each other and boycott companies that disrespect a pilot in commands right to command. TC should be more involved in this industry (again) and follow up with all complaints against companies that "force" pilots to fly.

I knew the pilot in this incident. He was a good man and no matter what the cause, I respect him as a man and a pilot. He got caught up with a shitty company.

[HO Driver]

Flaming of BEFAN in 5-4-3-2-1...............

BTW, I agree with most of what you said.

[BEFAN5]

Flaming of BEFAN in 5-4-3-2-1...............

BTW, I agree with most of what you said.

By "helping my company" I mean coming in for extra days, doing ramp work to help us depart on time(even though I'm not supposed to), etc. I do not mean flying into bad weather to help my company. If that is what you mean by me getting "flaming". I respect my employer.

[Doc]

I knew the pilot in this incident. He was a good man and no matter what the cause, I respect him as a man and a pilot. He got caught up with a shitty company.

I can't begin to imagine what his family is going through at this time. I didn't know him, but I haven't had dry eyes since this happened.

[HO Driver]

He got caught up with a shitty company.

This is what I disagree with. Sorry if you lost a friend but, a shitty company is not the reason this flight ended like it did. I assume by Doc's sarcastic post he is in agreement.

[Doc]

I assume by Doc's sarcastic post he is in agreement.

No sarcasm implied or intended. This one is really bothering me. The dry eye remark is serious. I'd like to do some serious hurt on whoever put him there. At the same time I agree with the sentiment you show HO. Shite mate, we have to put an end to this kind of thing. I'm fully convinced some of these younger guys are more afraid of the boss than the weather. This is just wrong. White outs, freezing drizzle, and low weather scares the crap out of me. I've missed at North Spirit. Pick up the inbound track, let down to sector, if we don't see it, bye bye. Why is more expected of these young guys?

[BEFAN5]

I don't know what happened. Neither does anyone here. We can all think what we want, but in the big picture, it doesn't matter. it happened. Let's learn.

[Big Pistons Forever]

it doesn't matter. it happened. Let's learn.

There has been at least 25 fatal accidents exactly like this one since I started flying commercially. So why didn't all those dead pilots from all those accidents "learn" the lesson of previous fatals ? Saying "lets learn" is being part of the problem not part of the solution.......

[Doc]

Saying "lets learn" is being part of the problem not part of the solution.......

Scary thing about this comment. It could well be correct. I don't really understand it, but nobody actually IS learning....so where do we go from here?

[BEFAN5]

Learning is an individual commitment. Myself or this group can not change or choose what lessons other have not learned. Let's all be safe.

[circle2land]

With regards to no RNAV approach at KQ3...I was notified a few weeks ago that North Spirit is scheduled to get an approach in the CAP by April of this year. This leaves only a small handful of strips in NWO without a functional approach. As for the medevac flight that brought out the survivor, it was several hours later and seemed to be localized phenomena obscuring the sky that day which was not in the area when they went in. I know this because I was landing at a nearby airport at the time (with an approach) and the ceilings were around MSA where I was.

Regardless, my condolences go out to the people involved, including the pilot and his family. It seems that every report I have read (not on this forum, but on the news sites) fail to mention the pilot. All they say is about how educated the victims were and how missed they will be, etc. Why don't these reports acknowledge that there was a human flying this airplane? This is somebodies son, brother, uncle, whatever.. who could have possibly been someone who was easily pressured to fly by his boss, and felt he may lose his job or get shit on if he didn't get in that day. Nowhere is this mentioned in any article I have read or report I have heard. The latest comments on CBC news from an "expert" is that he would never get on a Keystone flight. Maybe he's right.

Like someone on this forum has as their signature: The hardest part about flying is saying no.

[employerofchoice]

My deepest condolences to the families, it is a tragic loss no one should have to experience.
I am afraid that Cat Driver, Doc and many other old-timers who are cynical and pessimistic and pretty much bang on about the employer of choice, the regulator. A colleague, mentor and friend told me a couple of years ago that with the mass exodus of hard working and caring folks that have left because of so much discontent, we have no one with balls left in the building when it comes to the front line managers. Matter of fact, managers positions have been discarded and replaced with a very few newly created positions that have been filled with wannabe brown-nosing non expert in anything losers. I have seen the organization slip into chaos and now the fox is guarding the hen house. To correct some of the comments here I would like to say that nothing will likely come of this and those that said the pilot will wear the blame are likely very correct with their assumption. The company as far as SMS is concerned was forced after the last accident to follow SMS to maintain operations. That went away quite a while ago when the regulator realized it was too much of a headache and rescinded the order. The company right now is not SMS and so there is no accountable executive or the likes, so much like the last accident the core management will not wear any blame in the end. As I watch the last couple of days unfold, it is like past recent accidents where the only real concern is that the regulator is not accountable in any way.
Merlin P started this mess and now publicly denounces the new way of business to the world. Hypocrisy at it's best. The folks that really care about doing a great job and not wanting to ever read about these accidents are hamstrung, tied to the chair and gagged. The minister only hears the watered down version and will never hear what the grunts have to say. I truly hope that someone somewhere will finally wake up and realize that all these new programs will only work when there is sufficient manpower to deal with them. Cutbacks and reorganization is taking the regulator back to Cranbrook days and an inquiry that found a lack of subject matter experts didn't exist was contributing to the increase in accidents. They are headed right back there. Yes this is my first post, and no I'm not crazy. I just feel horrible about what happened and had to say something.
There will be accidents as long as there is a human input but I truly believe that just maybe some of them could have been adverted if there was a teacher standing nearby with the yardstick watching over the class.

[razorblade]

There was an "expert" in CBC comments who wrote a paragraph about KQ3 having an approach, and how the pilot must have descended below a safe alt and hit the ground.. People should just f*ck off.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Saying "lets learn" is being part of the problem not part of the solution.......

Scary thing about this comment. It could well be correct. I don't really understand it, but nobody actually IS learning....so where do we go from here?

Well in a perfect world the regulator would get out in the field and watch what is going on. Those operators that everyone knows are dangerous would get violated out of business. However we all know that will never happen, and in fact effective regulatory oversight is steadily decreasing as TC is devolving their responsibility to industry so what to do ?

Sad to say the only thing I can think of is a Name and shame forum on Avcanada, as in "today at 1435 I saw Navajo C XXXX operated by (insert name of scabby shit hole operator here) land at XYZ aerodrome "VFR" with a ceiling of 300 feet".

I am guessing the management of avcanada would not be too keen on this idea but I honestly can't think of anything else that hasn't already been tried.

[lilflyboy262]

I'm new to the Canadian industry so I cannot comment on the culture here.
BUT, where I was operating in Africa, we had the same issues until we lost a C208.

With the amount of time and effort that has gone into this thread already with 5 pages so far, someone could have constructed a well written, sensible and emotionally controlled letter to a editor of one of the major news companies outlining the major problems faced in general aviation today.
As heartless as this sounds, use the media attention of this accident to get the big issues that have been discussed, into the lime light.
At the same time, track down the kid that was fired for saying no, get his side of the story and get it out there as well.

Commercial aviation generally becomes safer with every accident as we learn from it and come away understanding just a little more about the chain of events that caused it.
With General Aviation however, we just sweep it under the rug... "oh its just 4 people dead, that's only as bad as a car accident."
This is no acceptable. To the people who are grieving, I am certain that they wouldn't care if it was 4 people or 140 people. They have still lost someone.

Don't let this accident become a statistic.

[RatherBeFlying]

Sadly nothing new here. I remember the Dubin report back in the '80s -- I actually have a copy somewhere.

TC and the operators do not learn from history --and repeat it.

[Cat Driver]

Flyboy, this is Canada and it is far different politically than Africa.

In Canada there is a reluctance in the media to attempt to expose a powerful government body such as T.C.

And remember we don't want to embarrass the minister, that would be uncanadian.

Oh I almost forgot, our bureaucrats are a bit more difficult to pay off than the African ones because of the difference in their pay scale.

Me I prefer dealing with the Africans because a few Benjamin Franklins get things done real quick.