Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Squid]

My bro got the employment package from my hiring buddy.
Profit share is not counted nor are perdiems in the comp. it says you qualify. They do count the 10 percent ESP as a guarantee should you participate. Another interesting thing is they are offering a flex benefit health plan. If memory serves me, not many regional types offer a flex.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Haven't found the info anywhere: Is it going to start out of YYC only?

[Kosiw]

Okay, just what the heck are "Flex" Benefits anyways ? Advantages/Disadvantages ? Is the same at mainline other than getting hosed for the 50/50 split vs 30/70...

Also curious someone posted previously that 20 working days/month is the norm for regionals these days, is it true, since WJE claims that will one will be working up to 20 days/month.

[petey]

You take a job at an airline that hasn't generated a cent for it's shareholders and compare your career status in 10 years with someone who took a job with the airline that can count it's losing quarters over the past 16 years on one hand and has seen it's shares rise from $10 in 1999 to $67.00 today.

Huh? Credible post sir.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... y/?q=wja-T

[flyer 1492]

From what I have heard for the D-8 crews based in YYC, they work an average of 16 days. If you have holidays in a certain month you could reduce it 4-5 days.

[RustyDeuce]

Okay, just what the heck are "Flex" Benefits anyways ? Advantages/Disadvantages ? Is the same at mainline other than getting hosed for the 50/50 split vs 30/70...

Also curious someone posted previously that 20 working days/month is the norm for regionals these days, is it true, since WJE claims that will one will be working up to 20 days/month.

Flex Benefit are in a nutshell, this: You get $XX to allocate however you see fit. You can choose a 3/4/5-star dental plan, 3/4/5-star medical plan, allocate money towards a health or personal spending account, take the leftover money as taxable cash, get more insurance, select employee/employer paid STD/LTD, etc. etc.

It's a great plan that gives each employee the opportunity to select the coverage that works for him/her. Spouse have 100% coverage elsewhere? Opt out and take the money as taxable cash. Cross claim with your spouse? Take a lesser plan and use the extra money elsewhere.

[RustyDeuce]

You take a job at an airline that hasn't generated a cent for it's shareholders and compare your career status in 10 years with someone who took a job with the airline that can count it's losing quarters over the past 16 years on one hand and has seen it's shares rise from $10 in 1999 to $67.00 today.

Huh? Credible post sir.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... y/?q=wja-T

I think that's the split adjusted price (2 share splits).

[RVR6000]

I would consider Porter's salary as industry standard. 80% of that as promised would've be $62400 (CA) and $34,400 (FO).

58K is diplorable, its B1900 wages, who cares if the company is stable and makes tons of money. When you can't make ends meet whats the point, try living in Calgary or Toronto on $58K. With 20 working days you won't have much room for overtime. Stop drinking the kool-aid call it as is.

[RVR6000]

It was understandable when WestJet was a start-up that the pay was low. But you guys are boasting about how profitable the company is and hasn't had a quaterly lost in years, so shouldn't it offer a decent wage too.

Porter as a start-up with losses in the first few years was offering $78K and $41K.

[CAL]

hope everyone had a good Christmas

companies all over the world have come up with interesting ways to define total compensation.....I think its BS personally..

as some have pointed out what you earn each month after tax is what you earn......what can you count on each month to pay for your car your house your food your kids school fees etc. thats what you earn....things like profit share and per diem are an added bonus.....westjet and many others mind you have used this as part of the total compensation....not so much on the per diem side thats a given and its generally pretty shitty unless you eat subway everywhere.....

esp is your pension should not have anything to do with total compensation....unless you assume you will fly until you die.

what is deposited into your bank account each month is what you earn.....not what you may get in 6 months....that 'bonus' should be used as an addition to attract you...not as part of your salary....

at the end of the day salaries appear to be coming down in Canadian airlines and other countries if you look at the net.
Dont assume you will fly overtime dont assume profit share dont assume your pairings will pay you loads in per diem dont assume you can afford to forgo 20% or in this case 10% in esp per month...look at 80 hrs times your hourly pay..thats its because thats what it will be most of the time unless you really like not being home or you have a line of credit that will eat your profit share.

this doesnt apply for 10 year wj capts or senior wj fo's you have put your time in your deserve every dollar you make......this is for the newbies looking at taking a paycut for something that may never happen...

the pay sucks for the position...but then again supply and demand trumps everything else....

net net net.......regardless of if you live in a tax free jurisdiction or not........

[Realitychex]

You take a job at an airline that hasn't generated a cent for it's shareholders and compare your career status in 10 years with someone who took a job with the airline that can count it's losing quarters over the past 16 years on one hand and has seen it's shares rise from $10 in 1999 to $67.00 today.

Huh? Credible post sir.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... y/?q=wja-T

There have been three 3-2 splits since WJA went public in 1999. If you bought stock at the IPO price of $10 then, the stock closed today at $67.63. The other way of looking at it is the IPO price adjusted for the splits was $2.96 and it closed at $20.04 today. It's not a coincidence that WJA has been consistently profitable with near industry leading operating margins in almost every year of it's 16+ year existence.

Business, and especially business with high capital costs that doesn't consistently generate an economic return higher than the cost of capital is, by definition, not sustainable and therefore, a poor option when considering long term career prospects. The business must undergo change to fix the problem and that usually means downsizing. Unless you are at the top of the food chain, that's not a good thing.

If you are keen on bouncing around from airline to airline every few years, and going to the bottom of the list every few years as a result, its not a big deal. If you are looking for long term stability for you and your family, it's something you should pay a great deal of attention to it.

I'll bet there was a vigorous discussion about WJA WAWCON when initial hiring was done in late 1995.

Everyone who joined the company at launch and for more than a few years afterwards took a risk to be part of something new. You won't find many original WJA pilots who regret that decision today.

No guts, no glory.

[pilotidentity]

20 days a month? What a grind. You have guys complaining of burn out at your mainline working 16.

At 20 days a month fatigue is going to be an issue. Are you going to limit commuting?

[Mig29]

It was understandable when WestJet was a start-up that the pay was low. But you guys are boasting about how profitable the company is and hasn't had a quaterly lost in years, so shouldn't it offer a decent wage too.

Porter as a start-up with losses in the first few years was offering $78K and $41K.

Exactly. Plus, Porter has a payscale that goes well into 90k/year

[Mig29]

hope everyone had a good Christmas

companies all over the world have come up with interesting ways to define total compensation.....I think its BS personally..

as some have pointed out what you earn each month after tax is what you earn......what can you count on each month to pay for your car your house your food your kids school fees etc. thats what you earn....things like profit share and per diem are an added bonus.....westjet and many others mind you have used this as part of the total compensation....not so much on the per diem side thats a given and its generally pretty shitty unless you eat subway everywhere.....

esp is your pension should not have anything to do with total compensation....unless you assume you will fly until you die.

what is deposited into your bank account each month is what you earn.....not what you may get in 6 months....that 'bonus' should be used as an addition to attract you...not as part of your salary....

at the end of the day salaries appear to be coming down in Canadian airlines and other countries if you look at the net.
Dont assume you will fly overtime dont assume profit share dont assume your pairings will pay you loads in per diem dont assume you can afford to forgo 20% or in this case 10% in esp per month...look at 80 hrs times your hourly pay..thats its because thats what it will be most of the time unless you really like not being home or you have a line of credit that will eat your profit share.

this doesnt apply for 10 year wj capts or senior wj fo's you have put your time in your deserve every dollar you make......this is for the newbies looking at taking a paycut for something that may never happen...

the pay sucks for the position...but then again supply and demand trumps everything else....

net net net.......regardless of if you live in a tax free jurisdiction or not........

What else is there to add??? If you think that all your education, sacrifice, hard earned hours, school debt and experience to fly a regional 74 seat aircraft deserves this 'great' compensation package, then I say go ahead and apply. Try SkyReg as well, just for back up.....

[Mig29]

Also curious someone posted previously that 20 working days/month is the norm for regionals these days, is it true, since WJE claims that will one will be working up to 20 days/month.

Of course it's not! People who say that are the ones quick to point out that an average Joe outside flying industry gets 8 days off/month, so we should stop complaining! and these people are pilots themselves

[Kosiw]

So alas, the die is cast and they are busy putting lipstick on the pig to do a sales job as the hiring begins, but how to survive on such wages unless you are lucky enough to already be established in Calgary or Toronto (ie. mom and dads basement while eating KD), but you won't be there much anyways with 20 days of the month on the road eating the breakfast bagels from Tims at 5am. Such is the future

[Realitychex]

It was understandable when WestJet was a start-up that the pay was low. But you guys are boasting about how profitable the company is and hasn't had a quaterly lost in years, so shouldn't it offer a decent wage too.

Porter as a start-up with losses in the first few years was offering $78K and $41K.

Porter has yet to prove to anyone over its 5 year existence that it's made a red cent. It was hoisted on its own petard in the aborted IPO attempt a few years ago when, after claiming profitability to anyone who'd listen, their own numbers proved cumulative losses of more than $40 million. Since the IPO attempt, it's been shopped around to a number of potential investors who, obviously, don't like what they see. Judging from what limited metrics they provide and industry happenings, both now and in the future, it's not going to get better anytime soon.

As stated earlier, if a business can't generate enough profit to cover at least the cost of capital, it'll have a hard time surviving in a capital intensive business. Would YOU invest in a business that doesn't return anything on the investment and won't year after year after year? I doubt it. Venture capitalists / Bay Street types in particular hate dead money, let alone losing investments.

If Porter is ever to make a profit, it'll do it under different circumstances than today, and that, dear friends, quite likely means a very different looking Porter, and / a different WAWCON and seniority lists in the future. What do you think an outfit like Cerebus or Onex would do with Porter if they took it on, (pure speculation). Business as usual? I doubt it.....

On the other hand, like WestJet in 1996, Encore is building a long term, stable and sustainable foundation on which to create a business. Is there any other way?

Will it's pilots be paid at the same rate as significantly more experienced 737 drivers made when they signed up for the adventure circa 1995 to 1998, (which, as i recall was a base of about $72k a year for captains)? What were 737 drivers at Canadian making in 1996?

Why should those starting out in a new venture instantly be able to piggy back on the hard work and success of WestJet that started almost 20 years ago.

Encore is a silo and must be able to stand on it's own two feet independently if it is ever to have long term success, which translates into long term security for each and every employee. It's success can't be based on artificial cross subsidization from the mother ship, which has traditionally been the model pursued by virtually every other "regional" in North America. How well has that worked out for Comair pilots? Pinnacle pilots? Expressjet pilots, etc?

As was the case with WJ in 1995-1996, those that understand what Encore is all about, and have the vision and entrepreneurial blood in them will "get it". Like all the naysayers and poo poo'ers of WJ in 1996, they'll be a slew of "holier than thou" cats who will never be interested in a venture where part of the fun is taking the risk and reaping the rewards.

To each his own.

One thing is for sure. They'll be absolutely no shortage of people lined up to join Encore as hiring begins in earnest over the next few months.

[altiplano]

Avcanada should ban corporate shills.

Zzzzzzzz... same old line.

[silverstar]

Realitchex you are trying to justify something that is terribly wrong. Quite simply myself and a lot of other guys are not going to be able to pack up our families and move to Calgary at those pay rates. I have a family to think about and as much as I would love to be part of the team I CANNOT AFFORD to live on those wages. I know a lot of other guys in the same boat.

[sanjet]

.

[Foo Fighter]

+1

By the looks of things, commuting will not be an option either, if you are expected to work 20 days a month.

[tallyho]

Looks like the Kool Aid just got a little more bitter tasting.

These numbers make me embarrassed to be a pilot and I have nothing to do with Westjet.

You get what you pay for in life. And Westjet will get someone with an ATPL and some decent experience who values themselves at $32k.

Sad and dissapointed.

[tallyho]

Oh, and it just blows my mind that people are actually defending this. Give yourself a shake. Walmart shelf stackers make more than that.

[Squid]

mig and rvr...do you fly a 70 hr block? i don’t think so...does porter?...i dont think so....does sky? i dont thinks so....so the thing is....you wont be flying a 70 hr block.....so the pay aint the minimum you think its going to be. the blocking target is 80 hrs...that’s the pay. i confirmed this with my hiring buddy....get off the 70 hr guarantee guys.....its the minimum if you dont spin a prop for the month....

[altiplano]

.do you fly a 70 hr block? i don’t think so...does porter?...i dont think so....

I know lot's of guys at Porter who fly 40-50 hour blocks - they don't mind because Porter gives guys an 85 hour guarantee... time and a half over that.