Air Tindi Fatal TSB Report To Be Released March 20, 2013

[xsbank]

That's true, they could, but surely you always follow SOPs?
Problem is, pilots nowadays can be criminally charged when they screw up, lawsuits are more like the US model and companies need to protect themselves from such as the object of this thread. Its not all fun and games any more, its a deadly serious business where somebody will decide that you are competent to take other's property and lives in your hands, or not. This is full circle why, if we wish to be professionals, we don't sell ourselves short nor cheap, shouldn't work for free and should never break ANY rules nor fly any junk. That's also why we need to do our part and weed out the trash who might think its OK to turn up at work impaired in any way. Did you read the Air France report about the captain having had less than an hours sleep? No wonder they want to cut our pay and in fact, cut us out of the cockpit entirely when a supposedly responsible 330 captain can behave like a moron and kill everyone. We should be happy that any of us can work at flying at all.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This discussion is about flight safety and pilot decision making.

I have contributed my addiction problem and use my real name because the subject deserves credibility to be of real value.

My career is over and I am relating facts not probabilities.

A fact is a twenty eight years ago I was flying water bombers and had a serious illness that in all probability would have ended or for sure shortened my life not to mention would have caused me to lose my marriage and affected all my family.

Safe flying is the main issue here and without good decision making safety is compromised to the point you will be accident prone.

Another fact is my decision to cure my illness made it possible for me to make good decisions for the rest of my career and with some added good luck I am here and my career was successful and accident free.

For those of you who have an addiction problem there is a way out, you must make a decision to cure it and once you make that decision life gets way better.

[ReserveTank]

+1 ..

[flyinthebug]

Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

Benjamin Franklin

I know Ben wasnt referring to mandatory drug testing for pilots, but the essence of his message is relevant to this discussion. Im with Doc (and Ben) 100% on this one.

PS...Thank you for sharing your story .. Ive always respected the fact that you use your real name on here, and did so when you were still turning props.

[AuxBatOn]

Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

Benjamin Franklin

I know Ben wasnt referring to mandatory drug testing for pilots, but the essence of his message is relevant to this discussion. Im with Doc (and Ben) 100% on this one.

PS...Thank you for sharing your story .. Ive always respected the fact that you use your real name on here, and did so when you were still turning props.

The day that your rights infringe on other people's safety is the day we need to give up a little for the greater good. Accidents like this can and should be avoided. In an ideal world we wouldn't need to do this. However, there are still people that think it's okay to do drugs and fly. And they actually do it... We are not talking security in the sense your friend Ben said. We are talking a grown man with people's lives in his hands not being responsible.

[Doc]

I guess having a camera in your face in the cockpit would prevent any solo memberships into the Mile High Club???
I wouldn't fly with a video camera watching me. There are heinous crimes committed in public toilets. Don't see cameras there though? Again.....rights and freedoms. This whole industry is becoming faaaaked!

[BverLuver]

The day that your rights infringe on other people's safety is the day we need to give up a little for the greater good. Accidents like this can and should be avoided. In an ideal world we wouldn't need to do this. However, there are still people that think it's okay to do drugs and fly. And they actually do it... We are not talking security in the sense your friend Ben said. We are talking a grown man with people's lives in his hands not being responsible.

AuxBatOn,

From reading your previous posts, I understand you are an F-18 pilot who has carried and dropped bombs in war zones, is that correct?

As a member of The Canadian Air Force, are you subject to truly random drug tests beyond initial hire testing?

BL

A question for Tim, or anyone who cares to volunteer an opinion,

why do you feel that random testing is a violation of human rights?

Meatservo,

The Canadian Human Rights Act, the very same one that flypast60 participants quote and fight for, say it is illegal to conduct random drug tests.

BL

[AuxBatOn]

As a member of The Canadian Air Force, are you subject to truly random drug tests beyond initial hire testing?

I believe we are, under QR&O 20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_F ... ol_Program

Honestly, I don't care. You can ask me to pee for you in a cup tomorrow, I don't care what it's for. I have absolutely nothing to hide.

As far as your first question, irrelevant to this thread.

[BverLuver]

As a member of The Canadian Air Force, are you subject to truly random drug tests beyond initial hire testing?

I believe we are, under QR&O 20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_F ... ol_Program

Honestly, I don't care. You can ask me to pee for you in a cup tomorrow, I don't care what it's for. I have absolutely nothing to hide.

As far as your first question, irrelevant to this thread.

AuxBatOn,

I disagree that it is irrelevant because you said "The day that your rights infringe on other people's safety is the day we need to give up a little for the greater good." I would say that your missions or even training missions carrying live munitions COULD infringe on other peoples safety.

Your policy states that only urine samples are allowed. As discussed in this and other threads, this is not the substantial debate. It is the blood/saliva/other random testing that is for debate and against the CHRA. We can ask you to pee in a cup, but would you be willing to submit to saliva or blood or tissue samples at labs you are not personally familiar with where your DNA could also be documented? Where do you draw the line?

BL

[AuxBatOn]

AuxBatOn,

I disagree that it is irrelevant because you said "The day that your rights infringe on other people's safety is the day we need to give up a little for the greater good." I would say that your missions or even training missions carrying live munitions COULD infringe on other peoples safety.

We mitigate the risks with rules and regulations. Everything we do is recorded by multiple sources so if we infringe those rules and regulations, we will be caught and dealt with. How do you mitigate the risks of drug use in aviation? That's right, you don't, unless you have a testing program in place. If there is a big enough risk (and it seems there is, since people die), then actions need to be taken to mitigate that risk.

What's the difference between blood, urine and saliva? You need to give up blood for your medical once every couple of years, why is this different? What if drug testing became part of the medical? You can say no to your medical. The result will be an invalid license.

Why is taking blood for drug testing is SUCH an issue but giving blood to detect other medical anomalies is no big deal to keep you medical? Should we only take blood on the medical because we suspect someone has a a disease or should we do prevention? See where I am going?

We give up samples and let the doctor do weird things to us to keep our right to fly. Why should drug testing be different?

[BverLuver]

We mitigate the risks with rules and regulations.

So does civil aviation. It is illegal to fly impaired in any shape or form. Are you telling us there is no person in military aviation that would ever contravene rules and not get caught?

Why is taking blood for drug testing is SUCH an issue but giving blood to detect other medical anomalies is no big deal to keep you medical? Should we only take blood on the medical because we suspect someone has a a disease or should we do prevention? See where I am going?

We give up samples and let the doctor do weird things to us to keep our right to fly. Why should drug testing be different?

As of right now, it is not federally regulated to have random drug tests but rather the EXACT opposite. It is federally regulated that it is against my and your human rights to do such testing but is federally regulated to have a medical. See where I am going with this?

BL

[Doc]

The day accidents like this don't happen and people don't fly under the influence is the day that I may agree than random drug testing is inappropriate. Up until then go ahead. I have no issue with that. I have nothing to hide.

So, you'd be willing to GUARANTEE that with random drug testing this thing would NEVER happen again? The fact YOU have "no issue" with testing is not all that important to me. I have nothing to hide either. That's not the point here. BTW, I'm pretty sure you are not subjected to random drug testing (without cause) in the military. I could be wrong.......but I don't think I am.

Aux.....we give up rights and freedoms, we will never get them back. You spend your day fighting for rights and freedoms. Don't be in such a rush to give up your own!

[Rookie50]

If I am in a bar with someone, and see he is drunk, I can knowledgably choose not to get in a car he is driving. I can evaluate the risk for myself.

Airplane passengers, usually don't have that knowledge. They have no idea what the pilot was doing one hour before, or during the flight. They willfully accept the risk of flying, and assume the pilot is trained and competent to conduct the flight.

The issue is not about those demanding their rights, the rights of the passengers in ones care overrides your personal rights. That is why we have ramp checks, recurrent check rides. It is for the passengers safety.

I have zero issue with it. You want the priviledge, you accept the responsibility.

This talk of rights, compared to the privilege of flying, and the greater responsibility of taking up innocent trusting passengers, makes me sick. Really.

[trey kule]

Honestly, I don't care. You can ask me to pee for you in a cup tomorrow, I don't care what it's for. I have absolutely nothing to hide.

Just to be picky..Please dont use that rationale. It is the rationale that people in power use to abuse your rights..They simply turn that around...If you have nothing to hide,,,then give up your rights..Stand up for your rights. What are you hiding? Despite media reports to the contrary , our armed forces do have a sense of right and wrong, and the leaders a sense of responsability that is not present in the civilian side of life.

there is no question in my mind that random drug testing, is infringing on our rights.. And any time that is done, it is eroding a bit of our rights and freedoms. I support random drug teating 100% though as those who smoke dope for the effect are the same people who will tell you it has no effect, and will not voluntarily stop . The consequences of their actions impact on so many other lives, it is unfortunately, a necessary evil..And unlike things like ramp checks, the process is not exposed to bullying and threatening, and thus, in my opinion, is a little safer degradation of our rights.
As to the rest 100% in agreement with your logic and conclusions.

[baron_dude]

Go ahead and give up your rights. But be ready for what comes next. After the next fatigue related accident will we be talking about sleep monitors to ensure we are all rested? Tell me where it ends

[Doc]

How many flights do we fly every year? One guy gets stoned and crashes and some of you guys are lining up to flush your rights down the toilet? Really? You people make me sick! Your forefathers fought wars to protect rights and freedoms. Freedoms that some of you don't give a crap about. There are more than enough countries where the people have NO right and freedoms. Pack your bags you spineless jam tarts, I'll buy you a ticket. You'll feel at home there. You don't deserve the legacy your fathers and uncles died to provide for you.
Papers please.

[Koalemos]

Rules and regs are only good so long as they are followed and can be enforced.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that your employer is gonna visit you at home with a bottle for a sample. That would be a violation of privacy, and TC has no business snooping around what you do on your time off so long as it does not affect your ability to operate an aircraft in accordance with the regs. (As Doc was pointing out)

The idea (as far as I'm concerned) is that on any given work day, when you report for duty, you might be asked for a sample. Since you agreed to follow the regs by having a commercial license, you shouldn't be surprised if they are there to enforce those regs, including being fit for duty (free of specific substances, alcohol or drugs, is part of that).

It's the same as if they asked to see your license on a ramp check. Would you get huffy if they ask to see that?

My respect goes to guys like . who have overcome challenges in their life, it isn't easy. But if you do have *any* medical/emotional/physical problem that precludes you from being fit for duty, you have no business in the front of an airplane. Take some responsibilty and stop hiding behind excuses and rationalization. It isn't always easy, as I know from personal experience, but that's life. Deal with it or go into another industry.

[Rookie50]

Rules and regs are only good so long as they are followed and can be enforced.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that your employer is gonna visit you at home with a bottle for a sample. That would be a violation of privacy, and TC has no business snooping around what you do on your time off so long as it does not affect your ability to operate an aircraft in accordance with the regs. (As Doc was pointing out)

The idea (as far as I'm concerned) is that on any given work day, when you report for duty, you might be asked for a sample. Since you agreed to follow the regs by having a commercial license, you shouldn't be surprised if they are there to enforce those regs, including being fit for duty (free of specific substances, alcohol or drugs, is part of that).

It's the same as if they asked to see your license on a ramp check. Would you get huffy if they ask to see that?


My respect goes to guys like . who have overcome challenges in their life, it isn't easy. But if you do have *any* medical/emotional/physical problem that precludes you from being fit for duty, you have no business in the front of an airplane. Take some responsibilty and stop hiding behind excuses and rationalization. It isn't always easy, as I know from personal experience, but that's life. Deal with it or go into another industry.

I could not say it better. +1 on all of it. Goes beyond substances, to fatigue. Remember Colgan 3407?

The phrase is, "it's not all about you"

Funny enough, I bet some, would resent showing they had a valid license.

[Doc]

It's the same as if they asked to see your license on a ramp check. Would you get huffy if they ask to

On what planet is providing you licence the same as providing body fluids? The police can only ask for your paperwork unless they have probable cause. Probable cause. Look it up. Seriously. What would you do if a COP pulled you over and told you to supply body fluids? You'd tell him to pound sand. You'd tell him you have rights. Well, do you have rights? Stick up for them. Think I'm on drugs? Charge me, and prepare to have your ass sued off.
Grow a pair here people.

[flyinthebug]

Go ahead and give up your rights. But be ready for what comes next. After the next fatigue related accident will we be talking about sleep monitors to ensure we are all rested? Tell me where it ends

+1!

This is what I meant by posting Mr. Franklin`s quote. It becomes a slippery slope once you start to give up your liberty. Where does it end if we all succumbed to pee tests?

Aux Bat On...

I understand what you are saying, and on some levels agree. I have nothing to hide in my urine either, but once I agree to that then what? They will see they can push the line just a tiny bit further. What comes next? Look at the joke the TSA is in the States...and the TSA is all an effort to ensure security to the (air) travelling public. All it has accomplished is stripping the liberty of each and every passenger...all in the name of security. Neither better security nor more liberty has been achieved. They have caught or stopped exactly 0 (ZERO) bombs from getting on planes since their inception. If we agree to start peeing in a cup on demand, it wont be long before the line gets pushed a bit further and further... again and again until we have no freedoms left.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

But if you do have *any* medical/emotional/physical problem that precludes you from being fit for duty, you have no business in the front of an airplane.

Actually you would be in contrevention of law if you fly with any of the above.

Lets have a more honest look at this issue here, almost without exception an addicted person does not live in a vaccuum because over time those around the addicted person will be aware there is a problem.

Somehow the industry has not moved beyond the days when being impared is just pushed under the rug and thus enables those who are addicted.

I am against random drug testing because that is a very slippery slope......

........there has to be more personal and group accountability that will eventually isolate those who will not or can not follow the rules and thus are unfit to be aviators.

[Rookie50]

Just curious, what are reasonable passengers rights, and how are those protected?

[Brown Bear]

News Flash:

Smoking that much dope is not a solo pastime. People knew. People who were in a position to prevent it. This is a fact. That is all.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Exactly Brown Bear.

The problem is instutitional and the fix will require a change in attitude industry wise.

[Koalemos]

I guess the biggest difference between Doc and I, is that I'm seeing 2 different situations and he sees it as one. I do NOT suggest drug testing in your home, on your off time, or for it to be used to try and tell you what you can and can't do in your spare time. You have a right to your life and privacy, and we should not give that up. I don't care if you are the biggest booze hound or smoke the biggest bag of weed I have ever seen (although I am not thrilled about helping to pay your medical bills through taxes). So long as it does not affect the below paragraph.

We have agreed to specific conditions when ON DUTY, when exercising the privileges granted by a commercial license. TC are allowed to enforce those regulations (done in a dignified manner, apparently I have to spell this all out in painful detail so I'm not taken out of context). If done in an *appropriate* manner, I don't consider random drug tests to be out of line. If done correctly. Have I stated this clearly enough? It means no road side test by the Police. If you need to cut down (or remove entirely, if you have impulse control issues) on the level of alcohol/drugs you do in order to follow those regs, that is for you to figure out. It's the whole personal responsibility thing I mentioned earlier.


@., that was kind of the point, any of those things mean you shouldn't be flying. I do agree its a slippery slope, and would have to be implemented in the right way. Some, most, people are capable of policing themselves. Obviously not all are, as this (and other) accident and discussion proves. I just don't share your optimism that pilots as a group are capable of providing the necessary accountability. Call me a cynic, its a reflection more on human nature than pilots as a specific group. Sometimes it's only the idea of a authority figure that keeps people in line. I don't even know if random drug testing will either, it's entirely possible it won't make a difference in the body count.