Co-pilot time for ATPL

[frozen solid]

Yeah. Leave it to your oblivious passengers to regret not adopting the British standards. We pilots can all be thankful for the token American-style standards we enjoy now. The requirements are already a joke.

[Colonel Sanders]

I understand that the guys with their panties
in a bunch about the co-joe 50% rule, are the
guys with no PIC.

The reason they have no PIC is that they got
into the right seat of a twin right after flight
school, which is exactly what they so badly
wanted more than anything else.

Well, you got what you wanted. And now you
want sympathy, as well

Please try to not get upset, when you get what
you want.

[Doc]

And, my good Colonel, they dump on the guys who went the instructor route because they all got ATPLs before them. The grapes are sour on the vine of aviation. LOL
You guys knew up front your time was worth 50%. It's been like that for....20 years?
One of the many I preach against ramps etc. PIC is king.

[Beefitarian]

Well, you got what you wanted. And now you
want sympathy, as well?

That's no fair. You're mean. We did't know it was going to turn out this way.

The monkey was just so cute. Didn't you read Curious George? He was actually a chimp but he was awesome and never grew bigger, or became so strong he could kill the man with the yellow hat by pulling him apart like a roast chicken. They don't initially seem to be wild animals that are difficult to train and get depressed being contained in a cage with no other monkeys. Oh sure some people told us it would attack, screeching, scratching and throwing feces but... The monkey was just so cute. Wait, multi time only counts half if someone else is in charge during that time? But it's more engines. We thought he would be sort of like a dog that eats bananas.

[frozen solid]

We all realise that what these co-pilot types want most in the world is to be the Captain. Not the PIC of some instruction-plane, or some bush-plane, but a real-live captain with his own hapless co-pilot to push around and make fun of. Having all your hard work only count for half towards your ATPL must be kind of insulting.

But here's the thing. Even if your time only counts for HALF, you're still going to be way ahead by taking the easy way: Let's assume for the sake of argument that you have a job as a king-air co-pilot. You are working for a company that promotes from within (well, aren't you?) so you have a reasonable expectation that after you've flown what, maybe 2000 hours, you will be able to expect to move over to the left seat fairly soon.

Your buddy on the other hand gets his float rating and decides to go off and get a job flying a float plane. Let's assume for the sake of argument that he gets a job flying a Cessna 180. To make this fair let's say he didn't have a way harder time than you did actually getting this job, although he did, but whatever. Let's say you got these jobs at the same time. Let's say he flies for a fairly busy non-seasonal company and he flies about the same number of hours per year as you do.

OK, go. By the end of the first year, you've both got 800 hours. He has 800 pic, you have 800 as a co-pilot. You have 100 night hours, he has none. You have 800 multi, he has none. He phones you now and then, especially when he has taught himself a lesson the hard way in his plane. He is kind of rattled, but you don't really get how a guy could be so stupid so you don't really sympathise. You find flying to be quite relaxing, in a way, although the stupid know-it-all you have to fly with won't let you do anything cool and sometimes criticizes your landings a little unfairly.

Roll forward to the second year. Buddy is flying a beaver now. He's making more money than you but he also lives in some asshole-of-the-world beginning with "fort" or ending with "lake". By the time this year ends, you both have 1600 hours. You're getting pretty close to that 2000 hours you're hoping will mean a promotion. Anything to get away from the guy you're flying with now, who doesn't even fly as well as you do and still thinks he can boss you around! You almost envy your buddy, who doesn't have to fly with another pilot. Well, not really. Buddy still has zero night hours, zero multi hours. He's enjoying his life more than you are but that's because he's now a borderline alcoholic and his boss likes him. He makes way more money than you now, but look at him. He's a slob. You on the other hand have a nice uniform and are starting to boast to girls that you will be a Captain soon. You decide it's time to write those "A"s, because you're getting close to needing them.

Third year. Buddy is flying an Otter now. He thinks he's a big cheese because a) the Otter's pretty cool, and b) he has almost 2400 hours! So do you! You've been able to credit half of your time towards your ATPL and now you're going to be a Captain after your next ride! Your life is awesome! You're not really friends with your buddy anymore but you hear he's going to Perimeter to renew his instrument rating. He has to pay for that himself though. Oh, guess what. In the fall your chief pilot asks you about him! Seems you're going to be friends again after all, Captain, because your buddy just got hired to be your F.O.! Of all the things! What the hell is going on? Well, your buddy has the same time as you, but his A.T.P.L. is on hold until he does some night hours. AND he can't be insured on the King Air just yet because he has no multi time! He also has some deep-set neuroses by this time from having lived in Stony rapids for so long, and no-one really likes him in the big city because he can't get used to indoor plumbing and is missing a finger from that thing that happened loading the Otter with drilling gear. Well, you tell your wife, I guess all my laziness and whining paid off. Look at buddy. Poor buddy. I guess it all goes to show that getting to credit ANY of my F.O. time towards an ATPL beats the shit out of having to do a genuine job!

Stop whining.

[North Shore]

^ 3 & 2 the count, bases are loaded. Pitcher winds up...it's a fastball, right at the centre of the zone..batter swings..CRACK..it's going, going, going, IT'S OUTTA THERE!!!

[Colonel Sanders]

I'd hire the float guy. After a year of flying the King
Air, he'll have learned all there is about that, and he
also has experience the Right Seat Queen will never
have.

You guys knew up front your time was worth 50%. It's been like that for....20 years?

Much longer than that. The PLH was the same way
when the CARs came into effect nearly 20 years ago.
I have no idea how many decades before that, the
PLH was first enacted.

I think it's fair to say that no one was a victim of an
unfair rule change. The 50% rule was in effect before
any of the complainers was born - let alone before
they got their PPL.

It's hilariously funny how many youngsters think TC
oughta be fair Oh well, they're awfully young, and
still on their first job.

[Johnnyvalrosa]

CANADA GAZETTE

"Currently, under section 401.10 Crediting of Flight Time Acquired by a Co-pilot, the holder of a pilot licence cannot be credited more than 50% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence. ICAO’s standards allow the crediting in full of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence. These proposed amendments would align the Canadian regulation regarding the crediting of flight time acquired by a co-pilot to ICAO’s standards.

Description and rationale
The proposed amendments to Part ⅠV Personnel Licensing and Training of the Canadian Aviation Regulations would

— repeal section 401.10 so as to allow the Minister to credit the holder of a pilot licence for 100% of co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for the issuance of a higher class of pilot licence and harmonize Canadian requirements with the ICAO’s equivalent standards."

[Krimson]

Link?

The next Part II isn't due until Oct 9.

[Johnnyvalrosa]

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/201 ... 3-eng.html

[Krimson]

That is from Feb 23, it will not be implemented for some time, someone previously mentioned something should be happening this month. We will wait and see.

[Colonel Sanders]

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's decision to ask the Governor General to prorogue Parliament until sometime in October will mark the end of several controversial pieces of legislation.

Under parliamentary rules, 19 government bills will die on the order paper in either the House of Commons or the Senate.

Among the pieces of legislation affected by the impending prorogation are the Senate Reform Act, the Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act, and the Not Criminally Responsible Reform Act, all of which have been met with varying degrees of criticism.

Delaying the return of Parliament also means the slates of the various standing committees have been wiped clean. This means the revision of the First Nations Elections Act and the Combating Counterfeit Products Act have been terminated, at least for the time being.

Studies by committee into questions surrounding animal welfare, bee health, infrastructure and the state of Canada lobster industry will also grind to a halt. The rules do not allow committees to sit when Parliament is prorogued.

While the bills have theoretically died on the order paper, the government could make a motion to reintroduce the legislation at the stage it was at before prorogation. In order to do that, however, it must get unanimous consent.

Otherwise, the legislation must begin the process all over again. Since the government has a majority, it is likely the legislation the government wants to reintroduced will be fast-tracked through debate.

As for private member's bills, they are not affected by prorogation. They will automatically be reintroduced at the last stage reached in the House of Commons via a specific standing order.

[human garbage]

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/201 ... 3-eng.html

Johnny that is the link that started this whole thread... I know people don't read all of the thread before posting, but how did you miss the beginning of it?

As the Col. points out above, prorogation is going to stop this from being in the next issue of Gazette II and most likely the next. I wouldn't count on this happening until at least 2014...

[Johnnyvalrosa]

All I'm saying is, there IS talk of harmonizing Canadian requirements to ICAO standards. I reposted this in regards to some of the most recent posts in this thread, where it seems some people don't understand that this will in fact be passed at one time or another.

[Krimson]

These proposed amendments were presented to a special meeting of the Personnel Licensing and Training Technical Committee of the Canadian Aviation Regulation Advisory Council (CARAC) in September 2008.

5 years to get to this stage, I'm not holding my breath.

[frozen solid]

Oh, I think we understand that it will be passed. We just have a hard time understanding how it's supposed to have anything other than a negative impact on pilot experience levels and safety.

[Mister1]

...

[rac007]

We just have a hard time understanding how it's supposed to have anything other than a negative impact on pilot experience levels and safety.

Experience and safety are not always directly proportional.

[Colonel Sanders]

Experience and safety are not always directly proportional

That's why job ads for pilots never specify flight times.

[Beefitarian]

Experience and safety are not always directly proportional

That's why job ads for pilots never specify flight times.

Ah here's the spot for these.




Maybe experience can be helpful.

[frozen solid]

We just have a hard time understanding how it's supposed to have anything other than a negative impact on pilot experience levels and safety.

Experience and safety are not always directly proportional.

Yeah. You're right. That's why we need new captains with as little command and as much of that high-quality right-seat time as possible. It's safer that way.

[rac007]

Unfortunately, with insurance companies calling the shots these days, the ATPL has become an insurance requirement and not a measure of experience.

[Oliver Close-off]

Even if the regulation changes, I'm going to wait until I get 3000 hours before I get my ATPL, so that this thread doesn't apply to me.

[Krimson]

Even if the regulation changes, I'm going to wait until I get 3000 hours before I get my ATPL, so that this thread doesn't apply to me.

Why?
There is absolutely no upside to that. You just look less marketable than everyone else around you with the same time.

[Oliver Close-off]

Even if the regulation changes, I'm going to wait until I get 3000 hours before I get my ATPL, so that this thread doesn't apply to me.

Why?
There is absolutely no upside to that. You just look less marketable than everyone else around you with the same time.

Tongue in cheek. I would wait so that I wouldn't 'technically' be subject to the judgement of the experts in this thread. At least they would respect my right-seat experience at that point, right?