Ice Pilots Back

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Maynard
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Maynard »

Anyone else notice the newbie last season who was a 'hotshot' pilot from bc, is now a mechanic there?
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CanadianEh
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by CanadianEh »

Maynard wrote:Anyone else notice the newbie last season who was a 'hotshot' pilot from bc, is now a mechanic there?
I noticed that too. So sad that people go through this to achieve their dreams (or have them destroyed). No excuses now for complaining, it's all on TV.
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Skymark
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Skymark »

Nice to see Prefkar finally get to fly after all the setbacks, but don't you need a type rating to fly cargo? Buffalo got inspected by TC a while ago for using revenue flights for training and it was said that a training flight can only be used for training, nothing else.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Cat Driver »

Buffalo got inspected by TC a while ago for using revenue flights for training and it was said that a training flight can only be used for training, nothing else.
And what possible safety issue is there if you train on a revenue flight, as long as there is a full crew on board?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Maynard wrote:Anyone else notice the newbie last season who was a 'hotshot' pilot from bc, is now a mechanic there?
The good news is this guys mother can now proudly say "my son is an aircraft maintenance engineer !" instead of what she used to have to use as a response to questions of what her son did; "Well we wish he had a better job but working as the piano player in a cat house at least pays the bills ..."
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flyinthebug
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by flyinthebug »

Cat Driver wrote:
Buffalo got inspected by TC a while ago for using revenue flights for training and it was said that a training flight can only be used for training, nothing else.
And what possible safety issue is there if you train on a revenue flight, as long as there is a full crew on board?
I have often wondered the same thing? I cant come up with one single rational reason that training cannot be done professionally and properly with freight on board? We got the same instruction though from TC at an audit of our AMO and charter division. They prohibited us from training on ANY revenue flights (cargo or pax). A training flight had to be conducted as a dedicated training flight period. I never understood the reasoning behind it? If the aircraft has a full crew and the crew has their profs, what is the problem with putting a guy in the right seat to learn in real world conditions? It just isn't exclusive to Buffalo.

Great to see Prefkar finally get his time in the right seat.

Fly safe all.
FTB
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Last edited by flyinthebug on Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Cat Driver »

When I got my DC3 and PBY type ratings at Austin Airways all the training was done on revenue flights.

My job on the airplane was in the back of the airplanes loading, unloading, looking after passengers and doing the paper work for the pilots.

Making the industry fly non revenue flights to train new pilots is detrimental to flight safety because it pisses money away that could be used to maintain the airplanes.

Typical government stupidity.
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J31
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by J31 »

Yup lots of fun doing training with the court party on board. Simulated Engine failures, stalls, steep turns, emergency descents, circling engine out approach with a go around, etc. :wink:

Seriously though some training could be done in on revenue flights. However line indoctrination in an operation like Buffalo Airways takes care of that.
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TG
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by TG »

J31 wrote:Yup lots of fun doing training with the court party on board. Simulated Engine failures, stalls, steep turns, emergency descents, circling engine out approach with a go around, etc. :wink:

Seriously though some training could be done in on revenue flights. However line indoctrination in an operation like Buffalo Airways takes care of that.
You beat me to it.
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Diadem
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Diadem »

I would suspect it's to prevent abuse of such a system. If a shady operator could use operational flights for training, why would they bother ever actually getting their FOs PPCed? They could just do "training" on every single leg with their rampies, while actually only using one properly qualified pilot. Over the years, the amount they would save on PPC flights and paying actual FOs would add up substantially.
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Donald
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Donald »

Cat Driver wrote:When I got my DC3 and PBY type ratings at Austin Airways all the training was done on revenue flights.

My job on the airplane was in the back of the airplanes loading, unloading, looking after passengers and doing the paper work for the pilots.

What did a check ride consist of?
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flyinthebug
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by flyinthebug »

Donald wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:When I got my DC3 and PBY type ratings at Austin Airways all the training was done on revenue flights.

My job on the airplane was in the back of the airplanes loading, unloading, looking after passengers and doing the paper work for the pilots.

What did a check ride consist of?
Pretty much the same as they do today. Of course your not going to do steep turns, stalls etc with court party onboard...but I doubt the pop and chips mind it very much. I (and I believe . as well) were not suggesting that you do these exercises with pax onboard...but 90% of your training can be done with pop and chips on board. We were referring to revenue flights...and somehow that equates into pax flights? You earn revenue flying pop and chips and usually its a better margin too. You also have dead legs where training can be conducted.

Next smart ass comment?

Fly safe all.
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teacher
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by teacher »

Revenue flight = Line Indoc AFTER your are typed.

Training = approaches, airwork, take offs and landings.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Cat Driver »

What did a check ride consist of?
The check ride for the type rating was done by TC.

All yearly check rides after that were done by TC.

I was chief pilot for several 705 companies and if you could satisfy me the ride with TC was a walk in the park.

Anything else I can help you with?
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Liquid Charlie
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Liquid Charlie »

I certainly is still legal to train on a return leg of a unit toll revenue flight -- aircraft is m/t and has no revenue on board it is completely legal to use that leg as a training flight -- remembering of course you do need a legal crew to do the revenue leg --
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Liquid Charlie wrote:I certainly is still legal to train on a return leg of a unit toll revenue flight -- aircraft is m/t and has no revenue on board it is completely legal to use that leg as a training flight -- remembering of course you do need a legal crew to do the revenue leg --
And....it's a rare day that doesn't have a leg or two, m/t. On a freighter, 50% of the legs are, so why not make use of the flight time?
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J31
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by J31 »

flyinthebug, did you miss the satirical nature of my post...it was partly in jest. :wink:

However in my time in this business I have seen LOTS of training documented on revenue flights that was merely a paper whipping exercise. Very little of the required training was actually done and it showed. Furthermore there are some very good pilots who are not very good teachers. To toss a untrained guy in the right seat with these guys and expect some quality of training on a revenue trip is a stretch.

While I'm sure Cat had very good training at Austin in his day, there were a lot of operators that did not take training seriously. To this day there are operators that still skimp on training and will use every angle not to train.

Personally I prefer to have a dedicated training event as I think it is the most efficient and productive.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Cat Driver »

Personally I prefer to have a dedicated training event as I think it is the most efficient and productive.
Yes if you are working for one of the companies that have a good training pilot and the company can afford to fly their airplane non revenue that is a good way to train.

Conversely a new pilot riding jump seat and observing the crew fly and then getting in the seat and flying the airplane when conditions allow is also a great way to learn......because observing is an excellent way to learn.

If you personally owned the company how many of you would prefer to fly non revenue for all the training......I sure would not.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
flyinthebug
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by flyinthebug »

J31 wrote:flyinthebug, did you miss the satirical nature of my post...it was partly in jest. :wink:
Yes J31, I did catch the tongue in cheek nature of your post. Although I referenced your comment about court party, my reply was more directed at Donald and TG.

Cheers!
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Donald
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by Donald »

The blanket statements that "my job was to load the airplane" and "all my training was conducted on revenue flights" definitely make a person question how you could demonstrate all the required maneuvers and emergency procedures satisfactorily for anyone.

I do agree with observation as a learning tool, but feel that without dedicated training sessions, the trainee is being short changed.

2 questions:

How would those pesky lawyers (and/or insurance company's) react if a trainee bent an airplane during a revenue flight?

And

Why has transport made it clear that training cannot be conducted on a revenue flight?
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flyinthebug
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by flyinthebug »

Donald wrote:The blanket statements that "my job was to load the airplane" and "all my training was conducted on revenue flights" definitely make a person question how you could demonstrate all the required maneuvers and emergency procedures satisfactorily for anyone.

I do agree with observation as a learning tool, but feel that without dedicated training sessions, the trainee is being short changed.

2 questions:

How would those pesky lawyers (and/or insurance company's) react if a trainee bent an airplane during a revenue flight?

And

Why has transport made it clear that training cannot be conducted on a revenue flight?
In regards to your 1st comment...as has been stated above by more than 1 poster, the training would be done on dead legs, m/t legs of which up to 50% in a cargo operation are. If you fly a combination of pax and freight, still most freight hauls are one way, which allows you the return flight for training.

Insurance covers many things, training included. Insurance companies know that pilots require training. That risk is mitigated by ensuring there is an appropriate training Capt on board (sometimes the training pilots names and information is submitted to the insurer for approval for training Capt status). The insurer lays out what they require for training flights and the company abides by those conditions and everyone carries on.

As for why TC is against it...I have heard from many TC inspectors who said it was fine. It depends on the region you live in and who you have as inspectors there. If you called 5 separate inspectors with this question, my guess is at least 2 or 3 would say it was ok as long as certain criteria was met. As with many other issues with TC, its a grey area. Some regions allow it, others don't. It all depends on who you draw as your companies inspector.

Hope this helps.
Fly safe.
FTB
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CD
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by CD »

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wan2fly99
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by wan2fly99 »

Last show was good I think. Loved that air combat, that is cool flying. Kids are always kids, cocky.

Is it correct that next week is the final show for Ice pilots
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MrWings
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by MrWings »

Yes, one more show to go. Then Ice Pilots will be on ice.
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Re: Ice Pilots Back

Post by C-FDPB »

really that was it? Believe it or not I thought the day to day sched and radial work was entertaining. Including the Noorduyn.
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