How to get rid of ACPA?

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[dialdriver]

What assurances due you have that ALPA Canada will accept the Air Canada pilots into their membership?

[planebored]

What assurances due you have that ALPA Canada will accept the Air Canada pilots into their membership?

We'll have to see.

It starts with trying.

The ALPA Intl side of things is done and ready. A carrier status and all. The key is getting the Canadian groups on board and that starts with opening the door. Less "We are Air Canada pilots and are better than everyone" attitude. Which is alive and well within our pilot ranks.

Maybe these new candidates can make a change, for example electing an MEC Chair that is more open to working with other groups?

[Mrbobmarly111]

Its simple. ALPA canada wants ACPA. Because they have more pilots than Westjet and Jazz combined. They want the MONEYYY jesus its obvious. Long story short I will tell everyone the bad experience ive had with Alpa and if they dont believe me ill point them at most of the other companies in Canada. They tell the story well. Im not sure why the new people want to change unions so bad anyways. Its like changing grocery stores simply because they have the wrong kinda bread. And once you get to the new store. You wanna change back because this new store sucks. But sorry folks the old store was burned down by some dumb kids no going back now.... happy long weekend and Vote No once you get the chance

[planebored]

Its simple. ALPA canada wants ACPA. Because they have more pilots than Westjet and Jazz combined. They want the MONEYYY jesus its obvious. Long story short I will tell everyone the bad experience ive had with Alpa and if they dont believe me ill point them at most of the other companies in Canada. They tell the story well. Im not sure why the new people want to change unions so bad anyways. Its like changing grocery stores simply because they have the wrong kinda bread. And once you get to the new store. You wanna change back because this new store sucks. But sorry folks the old store was burned down by some dumb kids no going back now.... happy long weekend and Vote No once you get the chance

Funny my experiences with ALPA along with many other people I know we're just great.

But keep the rhetoric up.

[fish4life]

Why not start by doing reps elected to represent seniority blocks instead of bases? Eg seniority 0-500 have a rep, 500-1000 have another, 1000-1500 etc

[planebored]

Why not start by doing reps elected to represent seniority blocks instead of bases? Eg seniority 0-500 have a rep, 500-1000 have another, 1000-1500 etc

Personally I see this as a partial solution but there should still be some base representation on a local level. To deal with local issues.

Perhaps NEMs split into 3 different seniority bands.

I would also support a move to base CA/FO reps where you can only vote for your specific seat. While there are some very Sr FOs it would somewhat fix the balance of seniority representation.

As it stands now, everyone being able to vote for every seat is a problem when demographics shift around. For example senior Captains voting en masse for both LEC seats and drowning out other voices. We have two Captains in YYZ right now as Chair and Vice Chair. While I personally think they are both doing a good job, one can wonder if Jr FOs or RPs feel represented or feel like they have a person to talk to who can relate directly to their issues.

You know who has options for all this built into their governance model? I'll let you guess.

[Johnny767]

What assurances due you have that ALPA Canada will accept the Air Canada pilots into their membership?

We'll have to see.

It starts with trying.

The ALPA Intl side of things is done and ready. A carrier status and all. The key is getting the Canadian groups on board and that starts with opening the door. Less "We are Air Canada pilots and are better than everyone" attitude. Which is alive and well within our pilot ranks.

Maybe these new candidates can make a change, for example electing an MEC Chair that is more open to working with other groups?

Not completely true, it changed with the new US President and ALPA C colluding to not have AC go into Group A. I am a big fan of ALPA but Group A status or forget it.

[planebored]

I agree A status or nothing. And I'm pretty confident the P4C group feels the same.

[altiplano]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

[Mrbobmarly111]

I personally know the people who were negotiating on behalf of ACPA with ALPA. This whole thing is stalled because of the Transat deal. They told me they cant keep negotiating a merger of the unions if the company is in talks to purchase a company with a pilot group already represented by ALPA. Basically a conflict of interest.

I still strongly oppose a merger of ACPA and ALPA. But its not a "deep state" conspiracy why they stopped talks.

After this Covid thing is over it might start up again but after the member survey (nice of a union like ACPA to ask its members what they want and post the results). I dont think they will be pursuing ALPA any time soon.

[Mrbobmarly111]

Honestly everyone im not opposed for hearing legitimate arguments for switching to ALPA. But all i hear is people BIT$&ing about how ACPA is "Broken". Give some examples about how things can be better. Also just saying ACPA mgmt is useless... well guess what that is useless. The people the members vote in wont change with a change in union. Right now a year 5 FO at AC has alot of options from top of the list 320 to 20 ish percent on a 777. The pay would be between 110 to 180 000 in the 5th year at the company. Compared to Westjet and Jazz as a FO at Jazz prob 50-60000 and westjet maybe 90 000. And the schedule at AC is way better. Dont believe the bullsh!t that Jazz has it all so much better. My buddy whos worked at AC for 2 year on the 320 has 19 days off a month. How HOW do you compete.

Do yourself a favor and stop going on AV canada and caring about such stupid issues and get to AC asap.

[GoodLuckSanta]

I have been here for 12 years and I agree. No one has been able to convince me why my 16 days off a month and $ 2 hundred thousand as a F/O could be any better with ALPA.

[NoIEatKraftDiner]

First time poster. I came from Westjet Encore 4 years ago. And almost every person i knew 3 atleast who helped set up ALPA and the first ALPA contract there are at Air Canada now.

[planebored]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

This was my understanding as well.

[planebored]

Honestly everyone im not opposed for hearing legitimate arguments for switching to ALPA. But all i hear is people BIT$&ing about how ACPA is "Broken". Give some examples about how things can be better. Also just saying ACPA mgmt is useless... well guess what that is useless. The people the members vote in wont change with a change in union. Right now a year 5 FO at AC has alot of options from top of the list 320 to 20 ish percent on a 777. The pay would be between 110 to 180 000 in the 5th year at the company. Compared to Westjet and Jazz as a FO at Jazz prob 50-60000 and westjet maybe 90 000. And the schedule at AC is way better. Dont believe the bullsh!t that Jazz has it all so much better. My buddy whos worked at AC for 2 year on the 320 has 19 days off a month. How HOW do you compete.

Do yourself a favor and stop going on AV canada and caring about such stupid issues and get to AC asap.

Lack of any real accountability or governance.

With the ALPA model you are held to a higher standard, and if things go south you end up in front of a panel of your peers (members from other airlines)..

As it stands right now the MEC Chair has virtually unlimited power, as do a number of unelected committee members and chairs.

[planebored]

I personally know the people who were negotiating on behalf of ACPA with ALPA. This whole thing is stalled because of the Transat deal. They told me they cant keep negotiating a merger of the unions if the company is in talks to purchase a company with a pilot group already represented by ALPA. Basically a conflict of interest.

I still strongly oppose a merger of ACPA and ALPA. But its not a "deep state" conspiracy why they stopped talks.

After this Covid thing is over it might start up again but after the member survey (nice of a union like ACPA to ask its members what they want and post the results). I dont think they will be pursuing ALPA any time soon.

Completely false. I know them too and what you saying is not the case at all. The merger hasn't happened yet, it does not matter.

If anything being in the same union as AT if the merger happens will befit us.

ALPA Intl takes a back seat role, if only one is ALPA you can be sure they will throw the full weight of the association behind Air Transat.

And if you put ALPA up against ACPA, I know who I'm putting my money on.

[Johnny767]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

I stand behind that the Group A got shelved, ALPA C President didn't want it and convinced the new US ALPA President to back him. Now there are uninformed Pilots running around fear mongering that if we join ALPA it guarantees a DOH merger with Transat.

Which is a complete load of BS.

Not to mention a MEC Chairman that hell will freeze over before he gets behind a move to ALPA.

[rudder]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

I stand behind that the Group A got shelved, ALPA C President didn't want it and convinced the new US ALPA President to back him. Now there are uninformed Pilots running around fear mongering that if we join ALPA it guarantees a DOH merger with Transat.

Which is a complete load of BS.

Not to mention a MEC Chairman that hell will freeze over before he gets behind a move to ALPA.

The window of opportunity opened. ACPA had maximum leverage. ACPA achieved its wish list. And then acted inconsistently with the responsibility of being part of a larger representational organization. And then the window closed.

There is no prepackaged ACPA/ALPA merger deal sitting on a shelf simply waiting for the AC pilots to pull the trigger. There are several steps and approvals that are now required before any merger can be consummated.

Perhaps discussions will reopen again sometime in the future. Perhaps a majority of AC pilots will decide they want alternative representation. Perhaps there will be a realization for all affected that a single voice for airline pilots in Canada is more effective than the cacophony of multiple competing entities allowing the regulators the opportunity to shop for opinions that support their agenda.

I won’t hold my breath.

[altiplano]

They already agreed and passed the amendment required so we could join in the A Team. The changes take affect as soon as we merge. This was a while back, we got everything we wanted, maybe some of us have forgot

Sounds like this got stalled out by a few on each side of it (both ACPA & ALPA Canada) defending their little towers.

You can bet that as soon as ACPA can get a leadership together that says we want in all that bullshit skirrnish small thinking will be brought in line.

I stand behind that the Group A got shelved, ALPA C President didn't want it and convinced the new US ALPA President to back him. Now there are uninformed Pilots running around fear mongering that if we join ALPA it guarantees a DOH merger with Transat.

Which is a complete load of BS.

Not to mention a MEC Chairman that hell will freeze over before he gets behind a move to ALPA.

MM doing a good job representing his interests over representing pilots. What a disappointment he has been.

He's feeding into that fear mongering with his 5 MEC amigos just trying to hold onto their displacements, listing for VO, and voting themselves 82 hours of pay while we are to be happy with 55 hours traded for nothing... a company that still lays off 100/mo.

The whole merger got shelved - there's no question that happened - but the amendment was passed and not subsequently repealed by the ALPA board. It stands if a merger happens.

Rewarding the ALPA-C incumbents at the time with some more US trips, a disproportionate say on affairs, and extended tenure at the top of the ALPA-C pile won't stand forever in the larger association.

Money counts. AC Pilots bring in a ton of due$ - I estimate more than group C in its entirety. That can't be ignored.

Unity brings gains to us all too.

The big Airlines are like, "What are we doing here. Do it already." They want to see it. Again, money, another big airline, economies of scale, cut those dues again.

JD got elected with support from Group C, to temporarily lockout AC Pilots, but if he is going to maintain any credibility with the other big players and the rest of the association, he can't be seen catering to the whims of a handful of senior regional guys in Canada over some BS politics when their is this much money and so much to gain at stake.

[rudder]

The whole merger got shelved - there's no question that happened - but the amendment was passed and not subsequently repealed by the ALPA board. It stands if a merger happens.

Rewarding the ALPA-C incumbents at the time with some more US trips, a disproportionate say on affairs, and extended tenure at the top of the ALPA-C pile won't stand forever in the larger association.

Money counts. AC Pilots bring in a ton of due$ - I estimate more than group C in its entirety. That can't be ignored.

Unity brings gains to us all too.

The big Airlines are like, "What are we doing here. Do it already." They want to see it. Again, money, another big airline, economies of scale, cut those dues again.

JD got elected with support from Group C, to temporarily lockout AC Pilots, but if he is going to maintain any credibility with the other big players and the rest of the association, he can't be seen catering to the whims of a handful of senior regional guys in Canada over some BS politics when their is this much money and so much to gain at stake.

JD has 2 years left on his term. He got elected with support far beyond Group C. I don’t think he is looking over his shoulder.

There are EVP elections next month. We will see who emerges this time as the Group C EVP.

As far as dues are concerned, both the JetBlue and Alaska pilot groups contribute more dues than would emanate from the AC pilots. In other words - the incremental AC pilot dues are a non issue for the future of ALPA.

ALPA has thus far proven that for the most part it does not suffer from the dysfunctional infighting that has been manifest at ACPA for many years. And it is likely that ALPA will be around long after ACPA is simply an entry in Wikipedia.

The AC pilots need to get their own house in order before approaching ALPA again. Surveys are nice but typically are rife with abuse in terms of deriving desired outcomes. Usually elections or actual member votes are the best opportunity to voice the will of the grass roots.

Unless there is some dramatic change in direction, I don’t see any ACPA/ALPA merger on the horizon.

[altiplano]

JD has 2 years left on his term. He got elected with support far beyond Group C. I don’t think he is looking over his shoulder.

I didn't say that he didn't. But the other carriers don't care about BS Canadian regional airline politics.

There are EVP elections next month. We will see who emerges this time as the Group C EVP.

As far as dues are concerned, both the JetBlue and Alaska pilot groups contribute more dues than would emanate from the AC pilots. In other words - the incremental AC pilot dues are a non issue for the future of ALPA.

Again, I didn't say they were needed for the future of the association. But more total dues can equal lower individual dues. I think that's something that's in everyone interest and lots of people can get behind. If you think 100s of millions of future dues collection sitting there to collect is nothing than I'm not sure what to say.

ALPA has thus far proven that for the most part it does not suffer from the dysfunctional infighting that has been manifest at ACPA for many years. And it is likely that ALPA will be around long after ACPA is simply an entry in Wikipedia.

Wawawa... take some shots... ACPA sucks... yayaya...

The AC pilots need to get their own house in order before approaching ALPA again. Surveys are nice but typically are rife with abuse in terms of deriving desired outcomes. Usually elections or actual member votes are the best opportunity to voice the will of the grass roots.

I don't totally disagree there. But I think the only thing out of order is a corrupt governance model (ACPA) and assholes (ACPA and ALPA-C) frustrating the advancement of all of us to hang onto their self import and displacements.

Unless there is some dramatic change in direction, I don’t see any ACPA/ALPA merger on the horizon.

We will see!

[Torontomaplelaughs]

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[skypirate88]

Worth a follow

https://instagram.com/pilots_against_ch ... 0yteex2lfy

[Dry Guy]

Kind of cringe worthy. I'm not so out of touch to not know memes can be powerful tools of communication and influence. These facebook-tier memes and videos just end up making you look dumb though. It was funny once or twice now it's getting sad. I want ALPA as much as anybody but I don't think this is the way forward.